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peralis wrote:Saying that a room that offers rakeback is unethical is the same as branding all casinos with a loyalty program where you get $1 for every $10 played back.
The fact that affiliates cover these costs in a poker room is their own choice. If you don’t like it – don’t promote it. We do very well without the rakeback.
It is just a matter of time that any affiliate who does not offer a rake back program for a site that allows it will lose all their players to affiliates who do offer rake back. All the money and time you spent trying to get a new real money player will go to waste. A heavy player would be foolish not to be getting a rake back if the site allows it. As the market becomes more saturated with rake back plans, you will feel the effects in your bottomline. You might not be feeling it now, but it is just a matter of time.
Ok.. obviously you did not understand what I was saying.. but I will answer your post first…..
How will I lose all my players? Once they are mine.. they are mine.. New players áre NEW.. most of them have no clue about rakes and the such..
Also.. everybody keeps talking about the big punter that realises that this is possible. There are a ton of new players out there – don’t believe me? 3 years ago people were saying that the casino market will be saturated – how come there are still so many new sign ups every day at so many different casinos with so many affiliates?
It is just a matter of time that any affiliate who does not offer a rake back program for a site that allows it will lose all their players to affiliates who do offer rake back. All the money and time you spent trying to get a new real money player will go to waste.
Then don’t promote the room that allows it— it really is that simple!
Whatever – I do not want to get into a fight about how this may affect poker affiliates.. because like I said:
That said – I would prefer them not offering the rakeback either!
THIS is what my post was REALLY about…
Do not brand them unethical because they offer it !
Then don’t promote the room that allows it— it really is that simple!
That is really the bottom line. If you are making decent money not offering rakeback with a rakeback room now – just keep a close eye. If your income falls off or goes stagnant, get out before you waste your space and resources on a hopeless situation. If you are new, decide if you want to offer rakeback or get paid the full amount. Sign up with the appropriate program.
I have looked around a bit and saw rakebacks from 15% to 40%.
Poker players would be fools not to go for a 40% rakeback!
Where ethics enter the story:
The program offers you a certain percentage of the rake, knowing darn well that you will not be able to collect that because it makes you not competative. You are induced to spin your wheels for nothing. The carrot is fake, it cannot be obtained in the long run. You will be forced to take a paycut against your will or leave and leave the program with all that free branding you provided. It is unethical to advertise a level of pay that is not sustainable.
As far as new players, I never subscribed to the notion that we are saturating the market already. You are definitely correct – there are lots and lots of new players out there and there will be more and more for a long time to come.
I am starting to think the solution to this is to create two lists of poker rooms – those who condone rakeback and those who do not.
Then affiliates can pick which they like.
My prediction is that soon enough the rakeback affiliates will push each other out of business. It’s just not a sustainable business model in the affiliate industry.
peralis wrote:How will I lose all my players? Once they are mine.. they are mine.. New players áre NEW.. most of them have no clue about rakes and the such..You can very easily lose your players. They can create a new account by using a different address or using the name of their spouse, sibling, etc. People do this all the time and if I was a regular player, I would create a new account to get rake back if I was not already getting it. Only losing players do not know about the rake. The winning players are very well aware of the rake and it is the winning players who generate a bulk of the profit. Losing players usually have no clue about a rake, but they do not generate that much in comparison to a winning player.
Also, I agree with you that the market is not saturated. My play and real money sign ups are hitting all time highs. I never called the sites unethical either. The sites can do what they want, but from an affiliate viewpoint, I think banning rake backs would be ideal.
Lets not fight about this, we both do not care for rake back programs.
“You can’t do today’s job with yesterday’s methods and be in business tomorrow.
Anonymous”
Oh, the irony. :laughing:
That’s ok. There are no hard feelings.
Everyone needs to check out opportunities as they present themselves.
The industry always adjusts eventually.
RakeBacks.com wrote:“You can’t do today’s job with yesterday’s methods and be in business tomorrow.Anonymous”
Oh, the irony. :laughing:
Yeah I usually only lurk here but that is pretty funny, I have thought the same thing.
Has anyone thought this huge boom in poker has been helped by rake back? The more money paid back to the players the more money players have the more action there is the more rake they take in……….. The rooms are only kicking back 25-35%, they are still raking the other 65-75% which is nothing to laugh at. This 25-35% comes back to the tables. Many players would have busted long ago without rake back. Party will learn this lesson very soon if they do not wake up. This recycled money creates more and more action. An affiliate offering rakeback is actually creating more action to the house then one that is not, thus creating more future rake thus creating more long term profits.
I would think most people here do not like me for my website. I am very pro player and I feel rake back is 100% pro player. Reading that poker rooms that offer automatic rake back from the poker room is unethical is mind boggling IMO. It is only unethical to a few because it is making those who are poker affiliates work harder to compete. A room like UB, AP, Prima, Crypto, and now more recently rooms like Full Tilt, action Network and Tribeca network skins now see the importance of this.
I will use Absolute as an example. Absolute has grown like a weed. Many high volume players have hit this place because not only can they bonus whore all they want, but the bonus does not come off of MGR on their rake back. How is it unethical for Absolute Poker to create such a positive deal for the player? It is one of the things that have brought players to this room in such big numbers.
Ultimate Bet fell out of favor with many players and they fell below Prima into #5th. They launched their rake rebate program and generated a buzz. Now they are 4th again and UB makes it impossible for a player to drop an account and sign up with another affiliate, the goal here is obviously only to accept new players.
Party obviously seems dead set on ending rake back. Possibly because of feedback from boards like this that seem to have little or no concern for what is best for the player. The thing so many do not realize is that that # of player figure on Pokerpulse is inflated. So many players are playing 4, 18, 12, even 16 tables spread acorss the skins at the same time. Most if not all of the skins with a rake back deal. These high volume players, many generating over $100,000+ in rake a MONTH (no I am not making this up) and getting $25,000+ in rake rebates. It is not uncommon for high volume players to generate this month and still generate $5000 in profit for the affiliate as well. Why is this bad?
Is it because it is better to keep every bit of the players income? Remember that this rake back keeps many players from busting. Since some break even to slightly losing players only survive by this rake back this extra deposit every month helps create more and more and more rake when a player would have busted and left long ago without this extra income stream. So Party has generated endless number of players who cannot win without rake back, but who can constantly create rake in the current setting, when it dries up these players will bust and leave, some going to new rooms, others giving up on poker altogether. Some might even go back to prop jobs they abandoned. If anyone should be pissed at rake back it is those who run prop programs. I am sure providing this extra income to the players to keep them from busting and watching them play and generating rake forever is just what rooms that support rake back have in mind. If they did not do this their action would dry up because all of the money would get sucked out of the games and stay with the house and affiliates.
Poker Stars and Paradise have never allowed this, the big difference between Para and Stars and the rake back rooms is that both have by far the best rake structure on the internet and both rooms offer very few bonuses. In fact a player with a rake back deal is likely still paying more then a player would have before Party raised the rake in late 2003. In other words a player at Party with a rake back deal STILL pays more in rake then playing at Paradise or Poker Stars without any deal. Do not expect high volume players to keep playing on Party if they end the kickbacks on all the skins unless there is a bonus. Paying high rake and getting nothing in better then average games will not be smart when this player could play on networks that generate close to the same (and in some instances better) games with lower rake and/or a rake back deal.
Flame this post all you want, it is obvious to me most of the people are upset here because rake back has create a competitive poker affiliate market. Either adjust to what the market has told you it wants (rake back), do not offer sites that support it, or do what you are doing now. I dont blame you honestly. We would all love to sit back and do nothing and watch the money tree grow. I know most if not all of you provide high quality sites that require a lot of work, to most I am sure becoming a rake back affiliate would be a hassle most do not want or have time to do, especially for those who manage so many sites.
Too many people have seen how important rake back is for the winning and break even player. Ending rake back is very anti player and many players will not forgive Party for this. Of course many said they would not play there again when they jacked the rake up and they did so who knows, maybe it will be a temporary hiccup.
I am sure every other poker room on the internet can not wait for Party to drop this hammer as they will all benefit greatly from it, whether they offer rake back or not. Players are addicted to rake back and Party obviously thinks it is time to end it, this is just the parody all of the other poker rooms have been waiting for.
Pokeraddict and Rakebacks.com-
Welcome to CAP.
I agree that there’s nothing inherently “”unethical” about a site offering a rakeback plan. Unless they’ve agreed per a program’s t&c not to offer a rake rebate, in which case they would be breaking a promise. Or unless they’re recruiting players to sign up with their affiliate id even though they already have an account.
I view rake back as nothing more than a bonus, except it is the affiliate that has to pay for it. If certain affiliates wish to do so knock yourselves out.
As far as Party losing business because of this, I don’t see it happening. As soon as all of you rake back affiliates get all of these higher volume players all playing in the same rooms, they’ll quickly realize there aren’t enough fish to go around. So what you’ll get is the same amount of new players coming in, which in the case of Party is still tops. When the big volume players are camped out at UB, Absolute, & others, because that’s where their rake back deal is, it will start to dawn on them that they aren’t the only good player at the tables anymore. They might decide it is more profitable for them to go back to Party, where there is a smaller ratio of sharks/fish. It’s not like a high roller player at a casino, where the player is dependant on a machine. A poker player’s revenue is generated by how bad the other players at the table are.
I am sure it has been and will be profitable for certain affiliates in the short term. In the long run I don’t see it as sustainable. The main reason is that rake back only really benefits the heavy duty player. The small or even medium type of players benefit much more through sign up bonuses. I can see a scenario where a heavy type of player may use the rake back for a while but not win as much either, so it may end up being a wash. And what they do win they might want to withdraw to put into a room where their “odds” are better. That, and what has been already stated, this type of competition among affilates just leads to a lesser percent of the rake.
You keep signing them up at the rooms that will allow it. I’ll keep collecting their money at Party. Because all you have to do is go out to the poker newgroups to see that the volume players know where the fish are. They are at Party in a big way. And I’ve seen the same type of comments for the opposite reason about rooms like UB & Stars, that there are too many sharks. In the end that’s what really drives business in a poker room.
I think it is not quite right that UB does not offer a CPA deal yet allows certain affiliates to offer rake back. What they are doing, for all intents and purposes, is allowing a few the advantage of scraping every heavy player that would out pace the typical CPA fee. Everyone else is left with players that may never reach this level. So as an affiliate, you really have to wonder if it is not more profitable just going CPA at almost any other room. Because what you get in CPA for one real money player in one month at say Poker Stars may end up being equal to 2-3 real money players MGR at Ultimate.
If a poker room wants to use rake back as an advantage the best thing to do would be to offer it themselves. At least stop advertising your affiliate program as 25% or higher of rake when we all know now this isn’t true. If I have to offer 20% of the 25% to compete it is no longer 25% period.
Hi guys,
It’s great to see so many people throwing in their two cents. Rake rebates aside for a moment, I just wanted to pop in and clear something up:
Quote:…UB makes it impossible for a player to drop an account and sign up with another affiliate…This is NOT something that UB “makes possible.” As I mentioned in a previous post, there are systems in place to specifically prevent players from creating a second account through another affiliate.
I don’t want people to get the wrong idea.
:cheers:
Nobody purposefully makes this possible.
It happens all the time though and is very easy to do. Bonus abusers and advantage players in casinos do it routinely, and the casinos rarely catch it. And believe me, they would if they could. It involves minor, easy deception.
The situation is creating a very undesireable player culture. As in perfectly honest players are being taught how to cheat and deceive.
I am not hostile towards affiliates who offer rakeback – it’s a very competative industry and it gives you an edge – at least for now. And don’t think it makes you not welcome here – you certainly are.
How the industry adjusts is to be seen in the long run.
f&p wrote:I view rake back as nothing more than a bonus, except it is the affiliate that has to pay for it. If certain affiliates wish to do so knock yourselves out.I think it is not quite right that UB does not offer a CPA deal yet allows certain affiliates to offer rake back. What they are doing, for all intents and purposes, is allowing a few the advantage of scraping every heavy player that would out pace the typical CPA fee. Everyone else is left with players that may never reach this level. So as an affiliate, you really have to wonder if it is not more profitable just going CPA at almost any other room. Because what you get in CPA for one real money player in one month at say Poker Stars may end up being equal to 2-3 real money players MGR at Ultimate.
If a poker room wants to use rake back as an advantage the best thing to do would be to offer it themselves. At least stop advertising your affiliate program as 25% or higher of rake when we all know now this isn’t true. If I have to offer 20% of the 25% to compete it is no longer 25% period.
Great post.
For the reasons above, I don’t think it is smart for affiliates who do not already make money with a certain room that allows rake back to start promoting them. Newbies are faced with an unfair playground. I will not under any circumstances start promoting a rake-back room I don’t already make money with.
For rooms I already make money with, I will continue to promote them until I see my comission ceasing to grow.
At that time it looks like I should give their spot to a non rake-back room, where I know I will be making full comission and will be able to grow with the room.
“I am not hostile towards affiliates who offer rakeback – it’s a very competative industry and it gives you an edge – at least for now. And don’t think it makes you not welcome here – you certainly are.”
Very well said Dominique! I like reading both sides of these discussions so I can make an informed choice about things. Just because we don’t agree with someone doesn’t mean we can’t learn something from them.
pfffffffffffffff
finally i start to understand what “rakeback” means
One of the biggest problems with rakeback is the spammers. You can’t play on
a Cryptologic site for 3 hours without being asked if you recieve rakeback.It happens everyday. And Cryptologic allows people to have more that one
account. So the players just open a new account through the spammers link.
I have tried to say “please send me info” and 10 min. later you recieve a
mail with these details: how to uninstall, delete cookies, click on the new aff link etc. :shooter:Regards
Benjamin
http://www.casinolisten.com
http://www.pokerpenge.dk
