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I am copying a reply I made at Casinomeister:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vesuvio
What do you mean by defrauding and what do you mean by fradulent player syndicates?This varies, and if it didn’t, they would be unsuccessful.
But it has nothing to do with using bonuses to increase your bankroll. IMO that’s what they are there for.
(BYW I don’t want to use the word “bonus abuse” ever, it has a different meaning for everyone and is really almost a joke. )
I used to be a “bonus hunter” myself, and actually my site grew on that soil. Back then it was simple, there were no or low wagering requirements and in BJ you always had an edge if you got a good bonus and played proper basic strategy.
So I am not talking about that at all. If you offer a bonus, it’s a given people will try to make the best of it. That’s the whole attraction. ( Note that today I would not even touch them myself, too annoying trying to meet the requirements anymore, too many possible winning cashouts missed. But that’s my personal preference, they just impair my player experience anymore.)
Fraud is defined legally like this:
1. intentional perversion of truth in order to induce another to part with something of value or to surrender a legal right
2. an act of deceiving or misrepresenting
3. a person who is not what he or she pretends to be
Fraud is criminal. It means lying about who you are or scamming people out of money by pretending something is a fact when you know it’s not.
It has nothing to do with bonuses really, they are coincidental.
If a casino would post here exactly how each instance of fraud was committed, you would have all sorts of people running off to try it on some other casino, so understandably they can’t do that. It’s like handing out an instruction manual on how to commit fraud.
Stupid, for me player satisfaction always comes first. That’s how I built a website with a 85% return rate. Satisfied players, fair treatment of players.
Fraud groups hurt other players. They need to be outed!
I think we all agree that fraudulent players should be outed.
The key is the definition of fraud.A player who signs up at a casino and plays according to the terms, and maximizes his chance of winning by playing smart, is not fraudulent.
Now, if that same player then signs up again with a different identity to do the same thing again, then THAT is fraudulent.
Note that I haven’t read the thread at Casinomeister. I’m basing my response only on what I’ve seen here.
This is the definition of fraud:
Fraud is defined legally like this:
1. intentional perversion of truth in order to induce another to part with something of value or to surrender a legal right
2. an act of deceiving or misrepresenting
3. a person who is not what he or she pretends to be
Fraud is criminal. It means lying about who you are or scamming people out of money by pretending something is a fact when you know it’s not.
It has nothing to do with bonuses really, they are coincidental.
Casino Bonuses are a marketing incentive that the casinos provide to attract new depositing players. Their intent and our goal as their partners is to bring in new PLAYERS who are legitmately interested in playing at an online casino. When that happens everyone wins.
The casino has a new player, we have commissions based on the activity of that player and the player benefits as they are given a bonus for bringing their business to that property.
When a persons only objective to joining a casino is to play the bare minimum of hands necessary to cash out a bonus and they have no real interest in PLAYING then they can abuse the system and are not profitable to the casinos or us. If enough of this goes on then casino will be forced to remove all bonues and we lose a valuable marketing tool and legitimate players lose a free perk they would have otherwise received.
We have to keep things in perspective.
I understand that FA has paid many of us good money over the years and I understand the blind loyalty. I totally understand wanting to give them every opportunity to prove what they are doing is appropriate and they should be given that opportunity.
However, we should all be concerned for the industry. Clearly the players complaints AND the program’s answers are saying that FL simply does not like these players style of play because they had won using the casinos terms. Therefore they do not want to play. Sorry to all of the apologists but if African palace did this (they did) then they would be Rogued and sneered at. If Connecto casino would do this (they do) then you would look at them differently. The answers given on CM clearly indicate that these people consider it abuse to win while using a smart strategy with the bonus rules. It is simply wrong and cannot be given a pass.
As an industry we simply cannot allow players to not get paid. Unless FL can prove that there is real FRAUD with fake IDs and such then they are acting in nothing but a rogue fashion. Look at the answers this player recieved:I am also experiencing this problem with the 7 Sultans casino. I won 426.5 EUR last Thursday, and all I got at my NETeller was the initioal deposit of 20 EUR…
Here’s the story:
I immediately sent a mail regarding the incorrect withdrawal. The response:
Quote:
I have reviewed your account and have noted that you have not met the wagering requirements on this bonus and therefore we have returned the $20 for the purchase you have made and the remaining $406-50 has been confiscated as you have not met the wagering requirements.As stated in the terms and conditions these bonuses will then be lost as you have made a withdrawal to early.
As I was sure I had met the wagering I went on by asking how much I actually DID wager, and what the requirements was. The response:
Quote:
The wagering requirement on the bonus that you have received is bonus x 30, $193.50 X 30 = $5805.And in the next mail:
Quote:
The total amount wagered before you made the withdrawal comes to €5920.50.This made me confused since 5920.5 is more than enough for wagerng, so I replied asking what was going on. The respnose was surprising. Now they stoped claiming I wasn’t finished with wagering, and instead they said I had played in ways which was against the terms & conditions. The response:
Quote:
I have checked with the security company and have been informed that the bonus has been removed due to the fact that there were discrepancies found on your account in regards with the Terms and Conditions of the promotion. The casino then has the right to take back the bonus and give back your purchase of $20.I replied by asking in what ways I was playing against their t&c. The response came directly from the floor-manager:
Quote:
Hi AntonMy name is Codie and I am the Floor Manager at the Fortune Lounge.
The decision to lock your account was taken of as a result of bonus abuse. We have reviewed your accounts and found the following.
You registered the account on the 8th of March 2007 and made the minimum required purchase of €20 to receive the bonus transfer amount of €193.50. With these funds you placed a single bet off €210 on Baccarat, where after you moved to Black Jack and French Roulette. A withdrawal was made on the same date to the value of €450
The status of the account will not be reconsidered as playing 11609 number of hands on red at $1 a bet in a roulette game is highly unnatural and improbable for any bona fide player with intent to play with us in future. Similarly, placing all your money on one single bet is also highly unlikely for any serious gambler.
You have displayed the same behavior as several other players and it is amazingly co-incidental that ALL of you had the same game pattern. Was this perhaps posted on some forum or did you hear about this from someone else? A syndicate maybe ? In the event that you did pick up.
Regards
Codie
Floor Manager
Clearly FL is saying that “although you followed our T&C we wont pay you because you won using a smart strategy that was within the rules”.
Bryan Bailey says this himself:
Just so we’re straight here – the bottom line is this, and this applies to all casinos across the board.
If the casino operation does not approve in the manner in which the player plays, then they have every right to lock a player’s account just so this is outlined in the terms and conditions.
If fraudulent activity is detected (multiple accounts, faked IDs, bogus personal info, etc.) then winnings should be confiscated since these would be considered bogus accounts.
If the player account is legit, the wagering requirements are met, and the terms and conditions are not breached, then winnings should be paid.[/
Also, I agree that we should allow CM to investigate for player fraud as Dom outlined it to be. It cant be vague accusations though – there needs to be hard evidence.
In any case, this is bad for the industry to treat players this way.
Professor:
So you are saying that there is NO player fraud whatsoever? I dont think that’s a realistic view.No, I am 100% against player fraud (stollen credit cards, fake IDs ets.).
What we are talking about here is something defined as “bonus abuse”. If you read the FL responce to the players, they do not talk about fraud, they talk about bonus abuse only.
There is nothing about “sindicates” here, as those players, each one of them, has a confirmed identity, proper withdrawal documents,i.e. they are real people, using their own real money, with their own real IDs – if they have acconuts in other casinos from the network – still not a fraud, this is something encouraged by every online casino group with more than one casino.
All they did was deposit enough to get the “free money bonus”, and then tried to beat the casino, using the casino rules, and obeying by the T&C. I would call it “trying to be sleek”, but not an abuse, as they can do this only ONCE, as the sign up bonus is when you sign up.
FL could have also start giving bonus on second or third deposit – this way they would have only the players they want (i.e. loosers) take advantage of the bonus offer.
Anyhow, if the correspondence posted on that thread from FL is correct – I would be scared to play or advise other people to play at such a casino. We are always foremost player’s advocates, not casino and affiliate programs advoctes.
Man I hate the bonus idea all together.
It just invites trouble from all sides. Players that make you the majority of your money over the long haul … which is the desired situation (IMHO) … aren’t going to need bonus offers.
Why the casinos don’t forward all this stuff towards bigger rewards for their quality players ….. I will never know.
Look at what a mess this is … and it happens again and again. The damn requirements for cashouts are confusing … and YES .. you make offers like that and you’re going to get droves of people looking to beat the system. Look at CM’s site. It is (IMO) heavily saturated with nothing but bonus chasers …… and when you add all the hassles of the bonus idea into the mix …. I just fail to see the advantage.
Yes it brings in new players. But has any casino every really truly tried the longer route of putting all that incentive towards rewards for quality players ….. excellent customer service …. and very fast and painless payouts …… and then stood back and let their repuation as it grows for such admirable approach …. see where it takes them? One of the closest to that is Casino Rewards but even they have the bonuses in place.
I think that the above qualities would speak for themselves …. and draw in the kind of players a casino wants …… while by not offering the bonus BS ….. you’d avoid all that trouble … and I guarantee you the man hours sorting this stuff out has to be staggering.
But then again … nobody in this industry ever sees the bigger picture.
I live near the riverboats … even though I play at them on rare occasions … the most I ever get in incentive is some kind of deal like … get $10, $20 etc free in chips to play in the casino. I don’t recall ever seeing a playthru requirement. In many cases their incentives are based on rewards for play … double reward points etc.
Who wants these bonus chasers? while its true you may beat them out of their deposit …. I can’t imagine that a lot of that money gets wiped out on the few who do hit it big ….. and this big win was all due to inviting this trouble in the first place.
its obvious this system makes money or they’d have given up on the bonus thing a long time ago. But I just cannot help but wonder if any of them have ever tried the other route. Seen how many man hours are saved …. sorting the bonus stuff out … and how much better their retention is for quality players by putting all that money and effort towards providing better service …. higher rewards for money already brought into the casino …. and perhaps a few gifts in the mail every once in a while to keep the casino’s name in the mind of that quality player?
I know its done on a smaller basis .. but I’m talking putting all that upfront effort, time and money towards the retention side of quality players. I seldom get any letters from big players complaining about bonuses. I get plenty of them about customer service and delayed cashins.
case in point: I just read about a quality player (also an aff) over at gpwa that was complaining about Vegas Partner having locked her account …. in the end it was for no reason but mistake on their end. this is a player that plays $1000s a month …. and their incompetence all but guaranteed she’d not be back.
But you can bet they have plently of time to make sure their new players don’t abuse the bonus they received.
reputation takes time to build. I will give you that. but word WILL spread amongst those that you’d want at your casino and likewise to those you don’t. Heck its basically what I have based my websites on and though I get little traffic .. I do all right and seldom have reason to complain about the end of the month (taking into consideration that current status of our industry of course).
Ok this is what happened
Players caught on to the idea that by playing a game like French Roulette at Microgaming casinos was their best chance of winning and clearing bonus requirements
Does that make them crooks or fraudsters, according to Fortune Lounge it does
I have trouble with that
I mean if i bet on football and win consistently is the sportsbook gonna tell me, “hey, you have to bet on tennis or we’re not gonna payout your winnings”
I just can’t see this situation any other way, i don’t get what FA are trying to say, i mean i do, but i don’t
You don’t know that this is what happened at all. You are speculating that this is what happened.
And obviously the casino is not going to publicize any of the fraud tactics – that would be like advertising it and inviting a whole slew of others to imitate.
Yes, Dom, we do know. This is a quote from FL response on the thread:
This is a case where players purchase the minium required to receive the offer (no problem with this) wager the full amount on one hand of a low risk game and, if they win, proceed to play only French Roulette, betting on red or black / odds or evens to meet the wagering requirements and then to cash in and disappear. This is nothing else than bonus abuse, call it what you like.
They can call it whatever they like, but it does not break the T&C.
Hi again all,
once again I say … if you own a bar in a part of town where there are a lot of people who’d jump on a chance for a free lunch …… and then have a happy hour where you serve free tacos to those that come in and have to buy at least one drink to eat……
you’re inviting every hungry mouth in walking distance come in and order a beer and then fill themselves to the rim with your tacos ….. all for the cost of the cheapest drink they can buy.
If instead you were to spend that money used for the tacos on …. for instance a nice background band …… more help to get drinks to your patrons so they don’t have to wait on their orders …. and provide an atmosphere that has been cleaned and made a more comfortable place for friends to gather …….
your going to get a crowd of people who aren’t there to get a free lunch. its all about who you target. Yes such a move would take longer to build a busy happy hour but once the word spreads …. you’ve got a business that makes money …. has a great repuation which means the business will continue to grow attracting further the kind of clients you’d want in your bar.
Now we’re seeing the bar owner bitching because people come in and order one beer …. fill themselves full of tacos …. and the bar owner wants them to be stopped at the door and either not allowed in ….. or apparently in some cases … to toss up what they’ve eaten because he feels cheated.
I’ve always said on the net you’ll get what you ask for. Now what are they asking for?
I like your analogy, bb1.
Fortune Lounge has to pay, because the player met the terms and conditions that the casino set.
The casino was free to set any conditions it wanted to set. It set these, and the player met them.
If Fortune Lounge wants to change its bonus terms and conditions for future players, or eliminate bonuses altogether, Fortune Lounge is free to do this.
But if Fortune Lounge doesn’t pay this player, every reputable site will have to add Fortune Lounge to its blacklist, and that would truly be a shame. They would in fact be no better than Connecto and the other rogue casinos the poster listed above.
And FL had better pay this player quickly, or their reputation will be permanently harmed in any case.
They have finally gotten taken off of the CM accredited list. (maybe only temp but it doesnt look good). If you have not followed the thread at CM closely, it appears that the casino group is sticking to their guns of not paying players because of the WAY that they played even though the players had not broken any terms.:whoa:
