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Chatmaster, a quote from you at CM which I would like to address:
Chatmaster wrote:Well I just made a post there to pressent my opinion about the issue. I will probably get flamed. But it is clear they haven’t read the latest few posts here.Hell no, you aren’t going to get flamed! What we all want is information. I hope that we all have open minds and aren’t going to flame somebody for their opinions here.
Yeah, we’ve read the posts. Some of us just might not agree 100% with the black and white presentation of the issue.
I realize that differing opinions aren’t welcome on the CM thread – as you probably noticed when I made a post that agreed with everybody but made the unfortunate error of praising Lloyd. Yeesh! :flamer:
Heck, we’re all getting flamed over there because we’ve praised Lloyd’s handling of the issue.
But we can speak our minds here.
We want the truth, we want to know exactly how content got onto the casino sites and we want to know exactly what has been done and what will be done to fix this!
Fergie wrote:but made the unfortunate error of praising Lloyd.Lloyd has earned and deserves praise. It is however unfortunate that some people like to jump on bandwagons whilst juggling oranges and lemons.
Fergie wrote:But we can speak our minds here.Exactly what a forum should be. :clapper:
Hi everyone,
Here is my thoughts. If you start reading http://www.casinomeister.com/forums/online-casino-poker-complaints/12659-jackpot-factorys-inspirational-stories-32.html
You will note that JF has various other domains out there with this kind of crap on it. You will also read the comments of their previous “content manager”.My suggestion to JF is the following.
Obtain a list of domains registered from Spiral and any other registrar they made use of, then start fixing these sites.
Make a public statement on what hapened, why it will not happen again and what now forward.JF has a very unique marketing style and being a Microgaming casino allot of support from myself and clearly others on this forum. All I am saying is. Fix this. This entire episode should never have happened in the first place. I have been neutral about you for a long time during these discussions, but after I found other sites with this crap on the chances are I will not promote you again as there has been a damage in trust and intention. However, I understand that this individual was probably behind this entire drama, but why was management not aware of what this idiot was doing or were they aware and did nothing…
Regardless of the bickering back and forth Jackpot Factory played a malcious and fradulent game of chance. I find most unfortunate is the representives from Brightshare must take the heat, be the scape goat in all of this.
If JF stepped out of line and found new unethical/immoral ways to attrack players I will drop the program and throw them down rogue ally. Players always come first!!!, but then again I haven’t even read this thread.
As for Lloyd most unfortunate circumstances, and I am sorry.
Greek39
I feel sick to my guts over this entire mess. What upsets me the most is that Lloyd has been set upon by people who don’t know sh#t from clay. Yet in true Lloyd style he has remained a gentleman throughout.
He’s also going to suffer indirectly from this too. Which given the type of AM Lloyd is and his personal character that embodies everything I think we all admire and respect about Lloyd, makes me think that the industry as a whole is going down the sh#t tubes at a fast rate of knots.
In direct regards to the JF fiasco I’ve been sitting on the fence before pulling their properties, waiting for eCogra’s statement of findings. However as each day progresses more damaging evidence comes to light.
When JF’s black hat SEO came to light I contacted Simon the general manager of JF. Although I’m not at liberty (confidentiality) to say what each email contained, I still feel there is more to this matter than just simply removing pages from a server.
This incident maybe a direct wake up call for the entire gaming industry, in so far as it’s time to change tactics.
IMO the majority of online gaming venues still subscribe to non-transparent practices. Having to wade through Company labyrinths in this day and age to simply find an actual bricks and mortar address is a common practice associated to this industry. Which imo is simply not good enough.
Once we introduce JF’s direct and indirect company connections this pushes this entire mess into another dimension.
Spiral has been the right hand marketing firm for these casino’s as long as I can remember. Therefore I feel that Spiral has a lot more to answer to than maybe it or JF or eCogra is letting on.
On a general overview Companies such as JF may have a massed a large number of casino/poker room properties. However, it seems that the greater the number of casino/poker rooms a Company hold in their portfolio the greater the risk of getting things wrong greatly increases.
Bozo’s (?) (the person responsible for this black hat SEO) post at CM’s was arrogant and is only exceed by his sheer stupidity. But, imo his analogy of the current industry’s climate is right on the mark.
I could not locate his post, but it went something like this:
Imagine a guppy fish swimming in the shallows of a blood red sea, whilst watching sharks ripping at each other in deeper water.
That imo sums this industry up to a T.
I’m posting this at both Casinomeister and CAP, just to set the record straight.
I want to be perfectly clear: What has occurred with JF has NOTHING to do with Lloyd and I think we all agree, Lloyd has done an exemplary job in how he’s handled this situation. Further, I think it’s fair to say that Lloyd has moved mountains in turning things around for Brightshare and without question, JF/Spiral should thank their lucky stars that they hired Lloyd.
But this situation is not about Lloyd. It’s about Spiral and Jackpot Factory, which just so happens to have Lloyd and Brightshare under its umbrella.
To be honest, I’m saddened by what’s happened. JF has always been great when it comes to looking after the players. But this isn’t about support or payments. This is about being caught out using some truly deplorable and offensive marketing tactics.
While some may think that some of us are “out for blood,” I can only speak for myself in saying this is simply not the case. My feeling is that the pages should have been removed IMMEDIATELY, followed by a statement via JF vowing to use solely ethical marketing practices. A sizeable donation to GamCare and/or Gamblers Anonymous would speak volumes, as well. I think most of us who feel strongly on this issue would have a completely different attitude about JF, were they to take these basic, simple measures.
Unfortunately, this has not happened and as such, the frustration is only growing stronger.
It was promised that these pages would be removed in a timely fashion and this has not been the case. There has been word scuttled about that this is not necessarily simply page removals. What does this mean, exactly?
Companies such as Spiral and JF are not start-up’s. These are companies with deep pockets and nearly limitless resources. It’s difficult to comprehend why, with all the resources available to Spiral/JF that the fix to this situation would be so slow in action.
Wrapping things up, let’s be realistic…
Go back to the days B.L. (before Lloyd). Had this come to light then, I’d imagine many affiliates would be looking at this issue differently. It is a testament to Lloyd’s effectiveness that so many are willing to allow for as much slack as they are. For that, Spiral and JF should worship the ground Lloyd walks on.
greedygirl wrote:My feeling is that the pages should have been removed IMMEDIATELY, followed by a statement via JF vowing to use solely ethical marketing practices.Your surmise is both practical and fuelled by a common sense approach, which by all account JF should have made this their prime objective.
greedygirl wrote:A sizeable donation to GamCare and/or Gamblers Anonymous would speak volumes, as well. I think most of us who feel strongly on this issue would have a completely different attitude about JF, were they to take these basic, simple measures.Granted in theory this would have been the honourable road to take. Though, imo the veil that shrouds those who are actively engaged in this witch hunt, I’m sure they’d just view this as JF trying to buy their way out. In which case it would merely give them another excuse to fry JF.
Reiterating my personal view, what JF did directly, or other wise allowed to happen here is despicable & something not akin to the action of an integrity driven company actively involved in the online gaming industry, much less an eCogra seal holder.
Edited notes: Under the circumstance and with the belief that one set of rules should apply in these cases. I’ve been left with no choice but to remove all of JF casinos from my sites. (I’m currently addressing that process now). Further more I believe if I’m willing to blacklist 888 for basically the same reasons then I should also remove JF too. (Thankfully I use dreamweaver)
I am still going to wait for eCOGRA.
I want to see those responsible for this fired.
It is totally unethical.
Lloyd, I am sorry, too. I hope this turns out well for you anyway. This thread shows how well respected you are in this community.
greedygirl wrote:Go back to the days B.L. (before Lloyd). Had this come to light then, I’d imagine many affiliates would be looking at this issue differently. It is a testament to Lloyd’s effectiveness that so many are willing to allow for as much slack as they are. For that, Spiral and JF should worship the ground Lloyd walks on.
Bingo. If not for Lloyd I would have pulled the casinos a lot sooner than I have.The seo was not black-hat. They are their own sites to ruin with waffle and link mazes.
The intent was gambling related keywords in the serps. Wrapped in incredibily objectionable text.
The Way I See It –
The truth is. There are billions of pages online with gambling adverts embedded into the template, on pages of content that has cancer stories on them, personal problems etc.Hence, intent matters I suppose. That being the case – the intended target was “best online slots” etc, not “cancer cure”.
Conclusion –
FJ have been thrown to the lions by the very firm that insists they constantly monitor all aspects of the casino operation, but missed this content on the homepages for nion a year.Conclusion –
FJ have been thrown to the lions by the very firm that insists they constantly monitor all aspects of the casino operation, but missed this content on the homepages for nion a yearHehe Joeyl,
I was waiting for you to say it’s all eCOGRA’s fault!
joeyl wrote:Conclusion –
FJ have been thrown to the lions by the very firm that insists they constantly monitor all aspects of the casino operation, but missed this content on the homepages for nion a year.That wouldn’t be eCogra your referring to, would it?
Aren’t they supposed to be monitoring 888.com also. :sarcasm:
I agree JF has been thrown to the lions; I’ve said this all along, I dare say in an attempt to draw heat away from 888. Over and above all the protest about 888 going back to early 2005 and the latest rogued entry to 888 by CM, eCogra still has not suspend their Seal.
Fact one:
John Anderson CEO of Cassava (888.com) provided funding to establish eCogra.Fact two:
John Anderson holds a non-executive independent directors position at eCogra.Fact three:
eCOGRA’s constitution is structured as such that the non-executive independent directors will always have control over board decisions, thereby guaranteeing eCOGRA’s autonomy from affiliated software providers and operators. (http://www.ecogra.com/About.aspx?Page=2&OP=P)Which in simple terms equates to:
Regardless of what decision the independent Directors and Executive Director may agree on, the non-executive independent Directors will always have the power to override & over turn their decisions.ECogra and everyone else who blindly supports them may tell you otherwise and may also employ spin doctor tactics to hide the truth, but, I’d sure be interested to know how the LSE (London Stock Exchange) would view John Anderson position.
At the least I’d be guessing conflict of interest.
Notes:
Rumour has it that eCogra is still heavily financed by John Anderson CEO of Cassava (888.com) and Roger Raatgever CEO of MG. These two gentleman are the founders of eCogra.Wager2winUK wrote:That wouldn’t be eCogra your referring to, would it?Aren’t they supposed to be monitoring 888.com also. :sarcasm:
I agree JF has been thrown to the lions; I’ve said this all along, I dare say in an attempt to draw heat away from 888. Over and above all the protest about 888 going back to early 2005 and the latest rogued entry to 888 by CM, eCogra still has not suspend their Seal.
Fact one:
John Anderson CEO of Cassava (888.com) provided funding to establish eCogra.Fact two:
John Anderson holds a non-executive independent directors position at eCogra.Fact three:
eCOGRA’s constitution is structured as such that the non-executive independent directors will always have control over board decisions, thereby guaranteeing eCOGRA’s autonomy from affiliated software providers and operators. (http://www.ecogra.com/About.aspx?Page=2&OP=P)Which in simple terms equates to:
Regardless of what decision the independent Directors and Executive Director may agree on, the non-executive independent Directors will always have the power to override & over turn their decisions.ECogra and everyone else who blindly supports them may tell you otherwise and may also employ spin doctor tactics to hide the truth, but, I’d sure be interested to know how the LSE (London Stock Exchange) would view John Anderson position.
At the least I’d be guessing conflict of interest.
Notes:
Rumour has it that eCogra is still heavily financed by John Anderson CEO of Cassava (888.com) and Roger Raatgever CEO of MG. These two gentleman are the founders of eCogra.I couln’t agree with this position more, corrupt there are!!! eCogra will do nothing to fix the problem. Maybe I should throw a couple of bribes/kickbacks at them, couple of million shoud do it. Prove us wrong, greek39
Dominique wrote:Hehe Joeyl,I was waiting for you to say it’s all eCOGRA’s fault!
Ecoga monitor all aspects of the casino continuosly via diverse sources.While assuring the games are fair as an independant non profit making third party lol.
Most folk like W2Win who take a look at ecogra as a whole from the information available, come up with questions that Abeveridge has admitted are an issue.
Woooww you are all so terrific!! Really!
A picture speaks a thousand words, so here’s how you all make me feel:
:blush: :tounge2: :tongue: :kisser: :1circling :satisfied
sigh.gifThey also say that you should count your friends when times are tough…
Whether you promote us or not, you have all invested, and continue to invest your own time to investigate our issue, to post and express your opinions and all in the name of making this a better industry, which is very admirable to say the least.
I know this seo fiasco is way beyond simple niceties and apologies… however, I would like to add that the manner by which the CAP and other affiliate communities manage to look at all the facts, perceive the real issues and to give us and each other their honest feedback is a reflection of the important central roll that affiliates command in our industry.
Thanks so much! I owe you all big time!
With regarding to the questions raised. I’ll try and address each one:
We want the truth, we want to know exactly how content got onto the casino sites and we want to know exactly what has been done and what will be done to fix this!
Fergie, please see David Brickman’s, JF Spokesman’s posting of today on CM: xxxhttp://www.casinoaffiliateprograms.com/bb/showthread.php?t=12192&page=4
Unfortunately, David had been on sick leave for the last month and just started getting back into things the last few days. This of course is the most pressing and important issue that is receiving his immediate attention.
Also, please see my comments below.
My suggestion to JF is the following.
Obtain a list of domains registered from Spiral and any other registrar they made use of, then start fixing these sites.
Make a public statement on what happened, why it will not happen again and what now forward.JF has a very unique marketing style and being a Microgaming casino allot of support from myself and clearly others on this forum. All I am saying is. Fix this. This entire episode should never have happened in the first place. I have been neutral about you for a long time during these discussions, but after I found other sites with this crap on the chances are I will not promote you again as there has been a damage in trust and intention. However, I understand that this individual was probably behind this entire drama, but why was management not aware of what this idiot was doing or were they aware and did nothing…
Chatmaster, these activities were handled in very confidentially manner and in a totally separate department from the casino management department and this was the root of the problem. Casino management were in no way involved in how these people were doing their work. This situation has since changed radically. They are now directly under JF casino management.
If JF stepped out of line and found new unethical/immoral ways to attract players I will drop the program and throw them down rogue ally. Players always come first!!!, but then again I haven’t even read this thread.
Greek39, exactly! We are all working for the players and the moment we forget that, we are lost. I have asked and demanded to know how this line of stories came about in the first place and I haven’t received a satisfactory answer. Not only is it totally immoral and unethically but it is also, from the little I understand, not a great tactic. With so many hundred’s of these bad stories on the web, someone was bound to stumble across one at some stage and it would obviously hurt the casino group’s excellent reputation. So why did they do it? Probably because some people have no belief system and they think that they can take important issues like this into their own hands. It’s way beyond any rational explanation.
Imagine a guppy fish swimming in the shallows of a blood red sea, whilst watching sharks ripping at each other in deeper water.
That imo sums this industry up to a T
David, I think is was guppies with stilettos… anyway, I feel very sick about this too. Guppies/sharks… I think this is more a comment about life in general and a certain perception about how things work. I don’t buy it. I’ve met some strange people in my life but I haven’t personally met an evil person. People can be very selfish, ruthless and cruel but in most cases it comes from traumas, poor education and disposition. Our online industry is of course very dynamic and aggressive and people make decisions that will maximize their hand. With so much going on, all at once, it’s quite a circus! However, bottom line, it’s business and it’s best to deal with people that you feel most comfortable to work with and that you can trust. In fact, there are guppies, sharks, dolphins, whales, penguins, turtles, salmon,… and who decided that one is more important than the other?
While some may think that some of us are “out for blood,” I can only speak for myself in saying this is simply not the case. My feeling is that the pages should have been removed IMMEDIATELY, followed by a statement via JF vowing to use solely ethical marketing practices. A sizeable donation to GamCare and/or Gamblers Anonymous would speak volumes, as well. I think most of us who feel strongly on this issue would have a completely different attitude about JF, were they to take these basic, simple measures.
Unfortunately, this has not happened and as such, the frustration is only growing stronger.
It was promised that these pages would be removed in a timely fashion and this has not been the case. There has been word scuttled about that this is not necessarily simply page removals. What does this mean, exactly?
Deb, yep, exactly, exactly, exactly… I wish we had done just that! However, big organizations can be slow and clumsy in situations like this and we were just that. Everyone was busy in their little part of the company and suddenly the bomb dropped and it took us time to work out what was going on. Pulling these articles down at some stage was not something that was planned for and decisions needed to be made, across departments. Argument’s about how this happened and how to handle this also didn’t help. Ideally, this should have been handled way quicker and under less pressure, but we have finally managed to 404 or 302 everything. Making a donation: this of course is being carefully looked into and will not be done as a way of saving face.
I am still going to wait for eCOGRA.
I want to see those responsible for this fired.
It is totally unethical.
Dominique, yep, that’s the bottom line. eCOGRA will be doing an audit. Responsible people fired… well some of them no longer work for us. Others were totally unaware. I know it sounds ridiculous but it’s the truth. They weren’t trained under casino management, so they had no way of knowing what is and isn’t acceptable. That said, I still can’t understand why they chose this totally unethical content line. Yes, it is totally unethical and beyond excuse.
Hence, intent matters I suppose. That being the case – the intended target was “best online slots” etc, not “cancer cure”.
Conclusion –
FJ have been thrown to the lions by the very firm that insists they constantly monitor all aspects of the casino operation, but missed this content on the homepages for nion a year.Joeyl, I’d like to think that was the case and it’s the explanation that I was given. Regarding eCOGRA: like any third party auditing body they can’t be responsible for doing a one hundred percent audit of our operations. The same is true for financial audits of public companies.
Regarding the questions around eCOGRA – best to ask them directly.
Hope this post isn’t too long.
Thank you all again for being so nice. Have a great week!Best regards,
Lloyd
