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As far as us as affiliates needing to “police” other affiliates in order to protect the casino affiliate programs from fraud: I’m not sure that’s our role, or even should be our role. I would say that the casino affiliate programs themselves should be protecting themselves from fraud. The programs that are better at protecting themselves from fraud are the ones that will be the most profitable.
I think our role as affiliates is to refer customers to the casinos. I think our role as members of this community are to provide each other with support and information. These are my opinions as an active member of the community–doesn’t mean that I think other opinions are invalid though.
Originally posted by Fergie
A little thing I found. I thought CAP members would be interested in it. I do not want the mud slinging to start, so please keep any responses well moderated.Fair is fair. Yes, I wrote that, and I was very, very angry and upset at the time. It’s true there are a few here, as demostrated who have no love for me, and I none for them. And we know who we are.
But I posted that on a public forum, available for anyone to see, so I can’t complain when it’s quoted.
You got me there. :rolleyes:
Obviously, I haven’t made any friends here with that post, and I do owe an apology for letting my emotions rule me. For that I apologize. For the ones who have a personal agenda with me, let the chips fall where they may.
Elizabeth
Simon-
Thanks–I understand the math and the reasoning behind the CPA model very well. I’m pointing out that the model is so open to abuse that other models (rev share, % of depoit) should be looked at. And that affiliate programs should consider eliminating the CPA model because it’s so easy to abuse.
I know that if I were running an affiliate program, I wouldn’t even offer a CPA model. Period. Any CPA model that an affiliate program does run is going to have to factor in an average based on the amount of fraud because when you’re dealing with webmasters on the internet, you’re going to have a certain amount of fraud.
The CPA’s that are being offered are either taking that into account in their averages or they’re not. If they’re not taking fraud into account as part of that average, then the CPA program hasn’t been well thought out.
Originally posted by Simoneaton
Hi Randy,The CPA deals affiliates are from figures based on averages, and what happens is lets say the affiliate brings in the following players with the following deposits:
>> Player a, initial deposit $50, total deposits $500
>> Player b, initial deposit $10, total deposits $40
>> Player c, initial deposit $200, total deposits $3,000
>> Player d, initial deposit $20, total deposits $90If we set a limit saying the player must at least deposit and wager the CPA rate (lets say it is $100).
Then the affiliate would only make $200, when in fact the affiliate brought in 4 depositors and is a good affiliate for the casino on the whole and should earn the $400.
Affiliate programs on the whole like to be fair the affiliate as they know the effort put in to bringing a player.
Now lets take the fraudulent affiliates player base:-
>> Player a, initial deposit $5, total deposits $5
>> Player b, initial deposit $10, total deposits $10
>> Player c, initial deposit $7, total deposits $7
>> Player d, initial deposit $20, total deposits $30Total deposits for the casino is $52
Amount paid to affiliate is $400To get the perfect match is quite tough.
To date I have been a lurker as opposed to a worker in the affiliate program industry.
I have looked at many webmaster sites and read volumes of information about the industry and have come to the conclusion that CAP is THE best casino webmaster board in the industry. Period.
CAP is full of very knowledgable and helpful individuals who are trying to stake a claim in the wild west of Internet gambling. The same cannot be said about other webmaster boards in the industry, imho.
I am grateful that some people have had the courage to post information about affiliate scams without going into a ‘mud slinging contest’ , as someone put it. I have seen some very nasty arguments and scorching words over far more trivial things than this at other sites.
I believe that CAP and it’s members/moderators have been very careful and cautious in this discussion and I must applaud their professionalism. :clapper:
I’m looking forward to the day when I come out of my cave and get the opportunity to meet you all…I’ll buy the first round
Fergie – thank you so very much for pointing the way to CAP. I owe you one!
Cheers! :cheers:
Wayne
oh yeah…. Until today I always thought Amatuer was a guy! :rolleyes:
Originally posted by whoiscasino
To date I have been a lurker as opposed to a worker in the affiliate program industry.I have looked at many webmaster sites and read volumes of information about the industry and have come to the conclusion that CAP is THE best casino webmaster board in the industry. Period.
CAP is full of very knowledgable and helpful individuals who are trying to stake a claim in the wild west of Internet gambling. The same cannot be said about other webmaster boards in the industry, imho.
I am grateful that some people have had the courage to post information about affiliate scams without going into a ‘mud slinging contest’ , as someone put it. I have seen some very nasty arguments and scorching words over far more trivial things than this at other sites.
I believe that CAP and it’s members/moderators have been very careful and cautious in this discussion and I must applaud their professionalism. :clapper:
Wayne
I must say, that was an excellent post and I agree whole heartedly. This forum is ALL business. Professor and moderators are handling this with class. I wouldn’t want your job at the moment, Professor…..hang in there.
Hi,
those that have history reaching back to the days of gpwa’s prime; will know that I am certainly no fan of amateur and frankly won’t be surprised if all that is said is proven to be true.
That said; I agree that proof should have went hand in hand with the publishing of names, or before, and not the other way around.
To address Jim’s post about us having for lack of better words, an internal affairs, there is not external to police.
This is not a company, a corporation, and certainly not a an entity created by, and put into place to perform any kind of acts on behalf of its public.
So to have an internal affairs would only open doors for what would be inevitably the same ending for CAP as happened at gpwa. Too few would be put in power to decide the fate of too many, and all with in the end; their own agendas to think of and likely act accordingly.
I do however appreciate Jim’s ambition to see justice done.
well I am not a GPWA “reject” as amateur said; which in itself was extremely incorrect because the majority of people here that came here from gpwa, are ones that left willingly as I did: in my case to avoid reading aggresive and IMHO unproductive posts by such people as amateur.
In fact she was about 80% the reason I left gpwa and am sad to see anything concerning her brought up here. IMHO she’d jump on any chance to argue and has probably had wet panties ever since she saw a chance to come here and stir up trouble.
Now however, we must see this thru.
I think it comes down however to the fact that cpa deals DO invite rip-offs and I’m certain turn the head of all those who have few ethics or morals.
Do the simple math and the answer hits you over the head with an anvil. Would you send quality players to some place for only a couple hundred bucks a piece?
Whatever rocket scientist it was that came up with the cpa deal was in fact not a rocket scientist at all, but rather much like the very kind of people that are being discussed today.
They didn’t want to pay the lifetime residuals and knew there would inevitably be a few out there that due to either lack of fluid resources, or due to the inability to see the forest for the trees in front of them: would take the ready money waived in front of their face as opposed to waiting for the real money to roll in.
No offense personally Simon, but I found your statement that most affiliate programs want to be fair as good a laugh as I’ve had for some time.
Translation is: most aff programs want to APPEAR to be fair. Even the ones that started out with good intention to be a fair deal for all involved, soon found themselves promising more than they could deliver in order to compete with unscrupulous programs which promised the moon, and easily could do that; because they were shaving the hell out of affs anyway. But in order to survive, the good programs had to start finding creative ways to stay afloat yet not take away from all that had already been promised.
And that is the case when it comes to CPAs. The problem was however they got more unscrupulous webmasters that were taking more money than was being saved by offering this deal in the first place because most of the money-making webmasters didn’t swing for the cpa pitch. The rip-offs however lined up for a nice juicy all you could eat buffet.
I will not be sorry to see amateur and her aggressive, non-productive ways to leave this place and its “rejects” to why we came here in the first place; to move on in life and spend our time towards a common goal of being successful in this niche: and not to spend our time bickering and acting like this was 4th grade again.
live long and prosper amateur; but do it some place else.
There is nothing at all wrong with CPA deals and I hate to see that even mentioned here. The idea that there is something inherently wrong with a program doing a CPA deal with someone they have being in business with for five years is simply ridiculous.
Wherever money is being made, some people will try to cheat. The only issue is if some program or some person is continually cheating. Either side of the coin is a potential problem for everyone and warnings about such are a useful thing. But these warnings should be thoughtful and well-presented, not off-the-cuff bashing like occurs elsewhere.
Hi,
well I agree with you Classics on most parts. though personally I cannot see any advantage to cpa deals except of course, you are standing on the end that is going to come out on the better end of it all.
I just can’t see somebody that has a proven player worth of say, $1000, ever going for a cpa deal of $250
the math just isn’t there to support the theory.
but I respect that if you say there’s a reason for them; that there must be.
ammend to say, that just like we encounter with ppc deals, that the buyer beware when entering into a cpa deal.
that by the very situation there is great possibility for fraud and that anyone entering into it should watch their stats closely and if they see a trend like for instance we see that tells us we are not getting real people in the click thrus we’re buying from PPCs; that they should then immediately shut down the account and contact the person that owns it, to tell them that they are no longer getting credit for any traffic sent on the cpa deal. perhaps moving them over to the % as an option, or the traffic provider can simply stop sending the traffic. their choice.
I know i’m new to this, but i think cpa has a blended role to play with rev. share deals. It’s nice to take some of the “gamble” out of the equation. I’m sure most webmasters will have some cpa agreements.
With regards $150 for a $50 deposit, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to work out what can happen.
Why don’t the casinos offer cpa staggered according to the first deposit, and only pay it once the customer has played it through more than once/met wager requirements etc..? IE
$5-19 deposit $30 CPA
$20-49 deposit $50 CPA
$50-99 deposit $70 CPA
$100-199 deposit $90 CPA
$200-299 deposit $100 CPA
$300-500 deposit $200 CPA
$501-$999 deposit $300 CPA
$1000 + deposit $400 CPAThat way, they can still offer a better cpa rate to some, but take away a lot of the risk. Surely, that’s a better model all round?
Good Morning all
Went out to dinner with Mrs Professor and got carried away with the wine so I was out of action till this morning :drink:Guys I dont like this thread for a lot of reasons and I am very close to archiving it. The main reason being a lack of details or evidence supporting the claims against the affiliates.
Yes, in private I have been told what allegedly went on, by several programs. But publically everyone is reluctant to speak up.
Well, if you want to make accusations in private and get everyone riled up you should have stepped forward and backed up these claims. At this point they (the claims) are only annecdotes without substance.
Perhaps we should keep all this crap in private. Its not good for business. It aggravates everyone and I see no real upside. I am going to leave this thing open till lunch time. If we dont see more “meat” we are going to put this thing in the attic so we can all enjoy our weekend and get back to business.
I don’t understand… Why will nobody speak about what happened? If something has happened why can’t someone post the details?
I also think it is wrong to name names with no support or evidence. Tell the whole story or nothing at all.
I finally have some feedback for all of you and i must admit that i am rather chastened .I have spoken to my immediate superiors and would like to make as clear a statement as possible.
I am very ashamed of what i have done in naming people,i have read the posts and i should have listened to the wiser amongst us and kept my brain in gear.
Classic you are completely correct ,that was a very stupid thing to do and i must apologize to all of you for my behaviour.I have sent an email in to the owners of the GPWA apologizing for the posts and the situation that occured due to my post.
This board has never been a place for this sort of behaviour and i am mortified that i was the person that started the ball rolling.My apologies to all of you for this.
I have been advised that i have no case to present and that both Elizabeth May and Michelle Slowinski are owed an apology.
My sincere apologies to both of you for the distress that i have caused to you.
In short i am here to make my Affiliate money and not to do anything further.That is what i intend to do for all of you.
If you have any further comments Michelle and Elizabeth please do not hesitate to contact me at [email protected]
Best Regards
Originally posted by Wager
I finally have some feedback for all of you and i must admit that i am rather chastened .I have spoken to my immediate superiors and would like to make as clear a statement as possible.I am very ashamed of what i have done in naming people,i have read the posts and i should have listened to the wiser amongst us and kept my brain in gear.
Classic you are completely correct ,that was a very stupid thing to do and i must apologize to all of you for my behaviour.I have sent an email in to the owners of the GPWA apologizing for the posts and the situation that occured due to my post.
This board has never been a place for this sort of behaviour and i am mortified that i was the person that started the ball rolling.My apologies to all of you for this.
I have been advised that i have no case to present and that both Elizabeth May and Michelle Slowinski are owed an apology.
My sincere apologies to both of you for the distress that i have caused to you.
In short i am here to make my Affiliate money and not to do anything further.That is what i intend to do for all of you.
If you have any further comments Michelle and Elizabeth please do not hesitate to contact me at [email protected]
Best Regards
Greg,
I appreciate that you were told by your supervisors to come and make this post. It meets the minimum standard as an apology, and barely that as an exhoneration of any wrongdoing by me.
You have managed to leave the impression that you, personally, still believe in what you said, but that those who pay your salary realize the implications of what you have done, and were wise enough to nip this in the bud.
As I said before, I have nothing to hide with regard to any affiliate programs I am engaged with. Be that as it may, no matter what is said here, by me or Greg, some will insist that where there is smoke, there must be fire.
Even though I am not obliged to do so, I will tell you my side of the story.
Back in maybe September of 2003 (Greg did not come to Wager Junction until maybe Feb 2004), I was signed up with Wager Junction. They have both CPA tags and % tags available. I used both on my sites. Their CPA deal was $50 per for players who make a $20 deposit.
I asked Nic for contest money as an incentive for signing up. He gave me many free coupons to give away, if players signed up and made $20 deposits. These were coupons for $20 free. Fine to me. To ascertain whether these players had actually deposited their own money, Nic sent me complete lists of all these players names and email addresses and the amounts of their deposits. I then distributed the coupons per the agreement, and was paid accordingly. At no time was any of this an issue. It was a deal instigated by Wager Junction, not by me!!
When they saw the math wasn’t working out, they wanted to change the payment structure. I told them to forget the whole thing. I only asked for contest money in the first place, not all this other. I’d have made money anyway, without anything else, simply from players clicking on my links. It’s always been that way, and still is.
I have had only two other CPA deals, that with Connecto Casino and Cirrus Casino, for whom I no longer advertise, and haven’t for quite some time. If my conduct was so bad, why did Greg contact me asking for more exposure?
The fact is that Greg could not have stopped anything, as he said. I stopped it in October, 2003, while he was still a happy employee of Alkemize.
Now Dom has seen fit to go over to WOL, (and who knows whereelse) and post as a fact that some other affiliate managers have complained to her in private about some bad behavior on my part. ( http://mb.winneronline.com/showthread.html?t=17297 ) This is an out and out lie, since I have no other CPA deals anywhere. As have all of you, I get calls and emails all the time for prime position, and offers of all kinds of deals. I turn them down. Because I want to decide for myself who I promote, and not based on anyone’s whim but my own.
Those who have issues with me, will choose not to believe a word I’ve said, but for those with an open mind, you can now make an honest assessment of what to believe.
As for what I posted at GPWA, I am embarrassed myself by that, and it is my turn to apologize again for those remarks. It is not my place to cast aspersions here or elsewhere, and I now leave you in peace.
Elizabeth
Well I am certainly glad we let this run its course rather then leave alot of things hanging in the air. Its was a bumpy ride to be sure, but I guess sometimes these things happen.
I am going to leave this open for a couple of hours so everyone can come in and see what unfolded then we archive it.
Elizabeth i joined Wager Junction in January and what i stopped or changed is the CPA deal that you were on.I changed you back to revshare and i emailed you with regards to that.
I sent you a payment in February and that was the last payment you got from Wager Junction .That was a very confusing time but i clearly remember that .
I dont remeber asking for exposure but you could be right ,i ask everyone for exposure ,very Affiliate Manager like i am ,actually i dont ask everyone for exposure.
With regards to this whole issue i am putting it to bed now ,i have disgraced myself enough and now i have other things to attend to.
Regards
Greg
