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Grand Total Active Players : 499
That is how many active players we have so I can imagine how many of them were cross promoted and not tagged to me, so yeah I am not a happy camper right now BUT I have worked close with Justin from the start up of the casino, and I can say for every issue that has come up he has worked hard to get things fixed in the favor of the affiliates!
I have no worries that Justin will be getting this fixed for the affiliates, I have found they are more willing to work with affiliates and appreciate us more then some of the other larger programs, hence the reason we promote them so much.
If all affiliate programs adopted this structure then it would make it real tough for new affiliates to grow, becuase alot of the players we send are getting credited to other affiliates. Let me give you an analyogy of the way I see it.
Nissan company = Referback
Leon County Nissan & Taylor County Nissan = sister casinos under Referback umbrella
Pathfinder = casino player sold from affiliate to casinoI went to Leon County Nissan and bought a new Pathfinder 5 years ago from John. Now, today I went back to Leon County Nissan and was ready to buy another one. However, I did not find what I liked so I checked out Taylor County Nissan and found what I was looking for and bought a new pathfinder from Brian becasue he had the product and information I was looking for. Now even though I bought the truck from the same parent company, Nissan = Referback, I certainly wouldn’t expect Brian to give up his commission to John just because John sold me a pathfinder 5 years ago.
It is the same exact scenario here in the casino affiliate world. I don’t know any ratios, but I know a good % of our players had bought a pathfinder somewhere along the lines, and us new affiliates could never make any money on those players because John already has them locked up. I mean, there is a reason why they signed up for the casino from my site and I worked very hard to provide them with the information that got them to do so. They certainly didn’t sign up from my site because of what they did with you 5 years ago. Let the affiliate programs reward veterans with higher commissions, more bonuses ect… Not from stealing players from me to give to you. I would suggest that if an affiliate wants to lock up a player for life, that they build such a great community and website with never ending resources so that player does not need to go elsewhere to shop for a new pathfinder. You do this with forums, newsletters, and a vast site with tons of information. Not with the information I have on my site. No offense, but this is kind of similar to thinking that its ok for the content thieves to make money from my content. Its my hard work, I need to make the money. I don’t get it.
Lets stay with referback.
I didn’t start promoting them until about a year and a half ago, for a vriety of reasons. By then they had been in the affiliate business for – what – 6 years? Maybe 5, not sure.
For the first 8 months or more I made peanuts and would have been much better off on CPA. Then I slowly started to get some of my own players in place.
Every month I brought a few new players and they cross promoted them.
After the year and a half, when I sold G&C, the Referback account had grown to play a major role in price.
I only wish I had realized much earlier in the game that with a program like that effort and loyalty truly pay.
I would have done a lot better for myself all along.
BTW. referback put this to vote a while ago, and the vast majority voted to keep the program the way it’s always been, with people truly having the player for life.
Dominique wrote:Every month I brought a few new players and they cross promoted them.You should be rewarded with the cross promotions, just not if they come in to a sister casino from another affiliate website. That affiliate worked hard to get his/her site ranked for the keywords that brought that potential player to his site, and if you wanted that player you need to do a better job at making them stick exclusively to your own site. Not expect the other affiliates to do all the selling, while you sit back and enjoy the commissions.
I have no problem with rewarding the first affiliate with cross promotions. But I will never agree with you that another affiliate should make money from my site. I just don’t think it is right. As a matter of fact I remember when I first came to this board, I asked you about Referback and you were kind enough to point out how they do things and this is why I never took them on. I just am not going to send a player to a casino where everyone is making money from my hard work except me. If a dime is made from a player that I send, I want my commisssion on it. I have earned it. Not you. You want the commission get them to come back to your site instead of shopping at mine.
Well, like I said, it’s a matter of preference.
I have no idea how many players I sent to them that already were tagged to another affiliates. Probably a lot more than I got tagged for myself. It bothered me too at first, and was one of the reasons I postponed promoting them so long.
Once I did start promoting them, I changed my mind.
I don’t begrudge the other affiliates the players they brought into the fold, I concentrated on bringing my own and it paid off over time.
Which, again, makes for a program that rewards work and loyalty and I like that.
I am all for them taggin all cross promotions to one affiliate
Hi again all.
Bonus, the thing you seem to be overlooking here is the fact that this particular program has already proven (at least to me) that they have no qualms whatsoever about stealing the players I worked so hard to get!
While I’m sure they appreciate your being willing to overlook the fact that no sooner than did I … and it works this way for everybody, I’m quite certain they didn’t just decide to pick on me, that less than one day later after I land the player they send an email with a great offer to lead the player away from the casino I have the player signed at. I cannot believe you are not just as outraged as I am.
I’m pretty darn certain the majority of the rest of the affs feel the same. I think you need to re-read my original post. They didn’t even have the courtesy to even so much as mention in small type that they’d like the player to return to the casino I signed them at. But they sure as hell went all out to get that player over to the sister casino.
I’m sorry but I cannot see any logic in your argument. Its not like I’m wanting credit across the board just because I feel like I deserve it. After such a slap in the face …. across the board is the absolute only acceptable way out for them. Its the only way I’m going to feel comfortable that they won’t pull this kind of BS on me again only next time it won’t be me that they’re stealing away so there’s no way I’m going to know if they did it again or not.
I didn’t create this situation. But rather than come in here and scream bloody murder I tried to give them an out.
Following your logic, and the pattern they have PROVEN to take … yes you might get a player credited to you that was originally signed up under somebody else but big deal. What good is that if they turn right around the next day and coax the player over to one of their casinos where they don’t have an aff to share the income?
See the big picture.
…….
edited to add:
I’ve already taken down their links. I can agree with Bonus about one thing. I too … don’t care to have someone else making the income that I should be earning. The only difference is that in my case … I find it totally unacceptable to have my sponsor wearing those shoes every bit as much as I would if it were another aff.
Further the fact that in this case the sponsor is using much, much more low-handed tactics to be getting my deserved income than it would be the case of one aff already having a player signed up across the board simply because they got there before me.
While I’m sure they appreciate your being willing to overlook the fact that no sooner than did I … and it works this way for everybody, I’m quite certain they didn’t just decide to pick on me, that less than one day later after I land the player they send an email with a great offer to lead the player away from the casino I have the player signed at. I cannot believe you are not just as outraged as I am.
I did not say I am willing to overlook it, I said I have faith that Justin will do as he stated he would do and that is get this looked into and try to get it fixed appease all affiliates, I am willing to wait for this to happen because for one did he not come here and jump right into the problem unlike some other programs out there who wait for days and days to come and address the issue!
Do you promote Referspot? If so I guess you don’t have a problem with them doing this very thing and believe me they don’t hide it, infact there is a post in their thread defending it and saying it is the norm in this industry which we all know it isn’t! I have started promoting them again for the simple fact that they have now changed their minds and realize the affiliates deserve the tagging on this cross marketing, I believe with the new program they have coming out soon, will have it set up so when we send a player to them and they install that Grand Prive buddie tool any casino within that group they open accounts with will be tagged to the affiliate that sent the player to them. I think this is fair and reasonable.
I am not agreeing nor saying it is ok to do cross marketing, because it isn’t ok, if for some reason Justin does not change this situation and if he comes out and say’s it is the norm, I will be removing links and fast, but does he not deserve some time to get together with his bosses and tell them this is not acceptable and it needs to be fixed asap? If I was to yank down bannners every time a program pissed me off over some issue I wouldn’t have anything on my sites to promote, because every program at one time or another has done something stupid to piss me off…lol:tounge2:
bb1webs wrote:I cannot believe you are not just as outraged as I am.BB1, I was only responding to the comment Dom made about “there should be only 1 affiliate tagged to a player”, no matter who sent them to the other casinos. What I said really had nothing at all to do with the situation here, but rather just in general sentiments that I have about the idea of another affiliate making money from someone I bring in the door, while I am left holding my noner in my hand.
But if it means anything, I think it is garbage that they are pulling this. You should be getting commissions from any cross promotion revenue, just not from player “A”, if player “A” is a new player to “sister casino”, which he found by coming to my site. I am not in the business of sending a player to a casino, and everyone including another affiliate make money on him except for me, the guy that brought him to the casino. How anyone can think I am not entitle to that commission is beyond me. I really don’t think you have read my posts correctly.
Maybe we have another bonusgeek and bonustreak mix up.
Hi again,
well its (to me) extremely obvious that this was a deliberate act … which therefore deserves no understanding.
It demands an action that will make me feel comfortable to promote them any further.
anybody that’s been around this niche for more than a couple weeks knows what they are doing when they send out an email from the casino that the player was signed at … promoting a different casino and not adding the deserving affs link code.
Shuffling their feet around and saying oh gee, I didn’t know any better simply will not fly with me.
that said, the only possible solution that’s going to make me feel comfortable promoting them any further is to credit across the board.
btw – no I don’t promote referspot and in fact that was the reason they fell off my site.
edited to add:
btw, I was my first sign up with this program so I don’t think I can be starting out any further in the hole than I would be now … so its not like I’m thinking I’m going to be cleaning up by getting them to credit across the board.
Hi Everyone,
It’s been a day since my last post, for the simple fact that I’ve been discussing our options with the development team and the board of directors here at T4G.
Before I comment any further on this matter, I’m going to address some of the comments/reactions of the posters in this tread.
bb1webs
Judging by your comments, it seems as though you’re an experienced affiliate who has been in the industry for quite some time now. I appreciate the fact that you brought this to my attention, because in all honesty … it was overlooked on my part and I certainly understand your concern. Was this a huge oversight on my part? IMO, no it wasn’t … considering the other aspects of the business I try to manage on a daily basis, not to mention the other initiatives I’m eagerly trying to put in place because of the feedback and emails I receive from you guys on a daily basis. I continue to encourage these types of suggestions and recommendations, because I’m here to help you guys make money. If I was trying to take advantage of you like some of you are suggesting, how good does that make me look as an Affiliate Manager? I’m not here to beat you down and “steal” players … I’m here to make you guys money, which in turn will make the company money. It’s a pretty simple affiliate business model when you step back and take a look at the big picture. I wouldn’t get too far, especially in the online gaming industry if I was out here trying to pull a fast one every time I could. So a little patience and a little understanding would be greatly appreciated while I go to bat for the 400Affiliates Team (including myself) to the board of directors, instead of posting what your POV on the type of person I am without knowing anything about me. You, yourself even said that you know nothing about our company and nothing about me … so how about giving me a little time to build a relationship with you before passing judgment on me on a public posting forum.The BBQ comment you made was a little disturbing to me. I’ve been put here to manage the 400Affiliates program and take all of my partners concerns into consideration and ensure those concerns have been addressed and the options weighed so that the affiliates are being taken care of without compromising the business model of the casinos.
Hi again,
well its (to me) extremely obvious that this was a deliberate act … which therefore deserves no understanding.
It demands an action that will make me feel comfortable to promote them any further.
anybody that’s been around this niche for more than a couple weeks knows what they are doing when they send out an email from the casino that the player was signed at … promoting a different casino and not adding the deserving affs link code.
Shuffling their feet around and saying oh gee, I didn’t know any better simply will not fly with me.
that said, the only possible solution that’s going to make me feel comfortable promoting them any further is to credit across the board.
I’m not even sure how to reply to this post. I’m afraid that if I say something which seems slightly negative, you might turn around and tell me that I’m giving you nothing but excuses. All I can say, is that you haven’t even given me the slightest opportunity to build a relationship with you whatsoever. Instead, you’re insisting that I’m deliberately trying to rip people off which couldn’t be further from the truth. If I can reiterate my point above, how much sense would it make for me to do this? I’m in this business to build relationships with my affiliate partners and take everyone’s concerns into consideration … not to lie, cheat and steal for a quick buck. I’ll have a hard time pleasing everyone in the affiliate world, but I’ll certainly do my best to do everything I can to keep as many people happy as I can. Will that mean making every change to the program that has been suggested to me? Probably not, because those changes might not fit into the overall business model at this point in time. Down the road, those suggestions might be applied … but I can’t do everything at once. It’s a process for me … a process for T4G and a process for the affiliates. It’ll take time, but I can guarantee that I’ll do everything I can to get this program running as smoothly as possible.
In the quote above you said: “Shuffling their feet around and saying oh gee, I didn’t know any better simply will not fly with me. That said, the only possible solution that’s going to make me feel comfortable promoting them any further is to credit across the board.” You know what … I’m not shuffling my feet around, but I can tell you that the cross promotion emails were NOT intended to steal your players and take money away from our affiliates. The promotions department sends out emails on a regular basis which is part of our player retention/conversion strategy. I can assure you that we don’t have this program in place to steal your players away from you … should we have included a clause or a statement which suggested going back to the original affiliate the player came from? In retrospect … OF COURSE! But it wasn’t done intentionally … that I give you my word on. If my word means nothing to you, then I’m sorry, but hopefully some day it will be worth more than what it is now.
I don’t want to start this relationship out on the wrong foot bb1 … and this post is simply to clarify a few things, not to come back at you with snide remarks and go “tit for tat” with you. I’m hoping that you will see where I’m coming from here … it has never been my intent, nor shall it ever be my intent to try and rip you guys off. I came from the affiliate side of things and the last thing I will do is try to steal your players and develop bad business partnerships. It doesn’t make sense to me … it’s just that simple. With that being said, I appreciate your suggestions and encourage you to keep them coming – just be sure to know that I’ll always have an open ear. This is a business of developing relationships and building trust. Of course I don’t need to tell you that, because you’ve been around the block a few times from what I can tell :bigsmile:
Engineer
You and I have been working closely together over the last few weeks, trying to implement new ideas and structure the affiliate program to suit the needs of ALL affiliates. Suggestions to fire my developer and put somebody in place who knows what they’re doing is an outright attack on me and on the people I work with. Nobody said it was an impossible change to make, but I can guarantee you it’s not a simple as adding an “If/Else” statement to a function in the affiliate code. If everything were that simple, the program would be bulletproof right now. What I can tell you is that it’s a fix that will take several weeks to implement, which in turn takes developers time away from other pressing projects. Not to say that this project isn’t pressing, or that it’s any less important than any of the other projects, but our technical team is on a schedule and unfortunately for me … we don’t have endless resources right now to accommodate all the changes I’d like to see. Again, those changes will take some time … but I can promise you that we won’t forget about them.Engineer, you should know as well as anyone that I’ll always go to bat for you guys. I’m not going to sit here and lie to you on a public posting forum … that just isn’t my style. I’ll always be as open and honest as I can with all of you … even in the public eye. I’m not here to make enemies …
Final Words
With all that being said, we’re going to add this change request to the queue and work towards having the affiliate tags added to those cross-promotional emails. Until that time, we’re going to stop all other cross-promotional emails. The only promotional emails your players will receive will come from the casino from which they signed up.I do apologize for the fact that to some affiliates, this “appeared” to have been an attempt to steal their players … but I will reiterate that this was definitely not our intention. It was a mistake on our end and we’re going to work towards implementing a change that works for everyone. Although we probably won’t automatically tag that player to the affiliate for ALL T4G properties, we will work towards adding a recommendation to the email that will remind the player who they signed up with and if they wish to remain loyal, click “here” to sign up under your parent affiliate. Bonusgeek’s suggestions make perfect sense. His Nissan analogy is a perfect example of why it’s not in EVERY affiliate’s best interest to structure the affiliate tagging in such a manner that this player is tagged for life to one affiliate. Every affiliate will offer different contests, promotions and other incentives that will attract people to their website. Those affiliates might work with me directly to come up with a specific DVG promotion or contest that will only allow that affiliate’s players to be eligible for that incentive at any given time. If the player wishes to take part in that promotion/contest and has already been tagged under a different affiliate … well then it’s not fair to the player that they will not be eligible to participate in the contest and/or promotion. If we opened up the doors and allowed all players to participate in whichever contest or promotion they pleased, regardless of what affiliate they signed up with … I think we all know the trouble this would get us in from a business perspective.
Again … I want to thank bb1 to bringing this to my attention. Give me some time and I’ll be working towards a permanent resolution to this problem, however for the time being … I will make sure that no more cross-promotional emails will be sent out to your players without referencing the parent affiliate. I agree that this isn’t fair to the referring affiliate and will do everything I can to get something in place as soon as possible.
Cheers,
Overall – excellent response Justin
400Affiliates wrote:Although we probably won’t automatically tag that player to the affiliate for ALL T4G properties, we will work towards adding a recommendation to the email that will remind the player who they signed up with and if they wish to remain loyal, click “here” to sign up under your parent affiliate.The only thoughts I have are on this quote. I agree that all players should not be automatically tagged to all casinos (I am sure that I am in the minority here). … However, if cross-promotional emails exist – then it would be much better for ALL links in that email to use the original affiliate’s link.
A ‘click here’ if you want to use your parent affiliate’s link is a really bad idea, IMO. And we all know that most of the people will go directly to the casino instead of using that link. Which means – the player is still stolen from us.
Hope you know where I am coming from…
Thanks!
kw
That sound like a fair solution to me.
Re. this:
Every affiliate will offer different contests, promotions and other incentives that will attract people to their website. Those affiliates might work with me directly to come up with a specific DVG promotion or contest that will only allow that affiliate’s players to be eligible for that incentive at any given time. If the player wishes to take part in that promotion/contest and has already been tagged under a different affiliate … well then it’s not fair to the player that they will not be eligible to participate in the contest and/or promotion.
This is confusing.
If bonusgeek has playerxxx at Cocoa, and I offer a special promo for Cocoa, can playerxxx then participate if he happens to be on my site, and does participation put him under me instead of Bonusgeek?
These things can get convoluted.
The more carve-outs, the more convoluted.
Hi Dom,
No … what you’re saying will not happen. I didn’t intend for that example to be too confusing … so my apologies for that.
If you have a player who signed up through you for Casino ABC, that player will always be credited to you directly for Casino ABC.
What I was trying to say … is that if player XYZ is tagged to you under Cocoa and you managed to get that player to sign on with you because of the unique promotion that you were offering through your website, it wouldn’t be fair if Bonusgeek was offering an attractive promotion or contest of his own at DVG and player XYZ wanted to join DVG through Bonusgeek instead of inherently being tagged to you, because he/she signed up for another Cocoa through you first.
Does that make sense?
Hi again Justin.
I apologize if I seemed to be attacking you personally.
Always follow the money to get to who deserves such an attack. I realize it doesn’t effect your personal income whether or not the player is assigned to an affiliate.
I was rightly outraged. That is complete and utter theft to send such an email and the somebody who made the decision to send out that email deserves no understanding.
A twelve year old could spot the wrongness in such an approach.
Whoever that person was obviously took no thought in that this act would get back to us affiliates.
This is incredibly serious stuff Justin. Its not a “mistake” taken lightly. At any given time the player we send may be the one who literally will support us for a very long time in the future. If you’ve been on both sides then you should know that and fully understand then why this isn’t an issue that we can sit back and be patient about.
Especially in these times.
400Affiliates wrote:Hi Dom,No … what you’re saying will not happen. I didn’t intend for that example to be too confusing … so my apologies for that.
If you have a player who signed up through you for Casino ABC, that player will always be credited to you directly for Casino ABC.
What I was trying to say … is that if player XYZ is tagged to you under Cocoa and you managed to get that player to sign on with you because of the unique promotion that you were offering through your website, it wouldn’t be fair if Bonusgeek was offering an attractive promotion or contest of his own at DVG and player XYZ wanted to join DVG through Bonusgeek instead of inherently being tagged to you, because he/she signed up for another Cocoa through you first.
Does that make sense?
It makes sense to do it either way as long as it’s consistent.
BB1 is right, it’s a bad mistake with the xpromotion and it’s a good thing that you are stopping that until you get a fix in place.
