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Oh.. and yes… CAP makes a huge impact !!
Lou – you have an excellent community here!
Thank you.
Just got off the phone with Zane Green from Referback. Keep an eye open for his response on the message boards.
That will be interesting!
I started giving some exposure to some other micros a couple months ago when Fortune came out with their stuff, and I must say that I am surprised at conversions and at the quality of my players.
Referback had me frozen at a certain level – I am far superceeding that with others.
Zane’s track record is abysmal. I am not expecting anything from this, so if anything changes it will be a pleasant surprise.
I wonder if he realizes how much this will hurt him this time….
Professor wrote:Simmo! its highly unlikely any business would ever say never to making changes in the future. That being said, I think they are painfully aware that this sort of behavior, that they assumed would go un-noticed, didnt.David Sack summed it up by saying this is a young industry and as such we are bound to make a few mistakes along the way. I graciously agreed and told him I was sure we wouldnt have to travel down this path again in the future.
It’s VERY important that we commend postive behavior and changes. If we dont then we wont get concessions.
If people come back with the attitude of “Well, even though you’ve given us what we asked for we STILL dont trust you and dont want to work with you!” then why the hell SHOULD they change?
They might just as well weather the storm and move on if they believe they’ve already lost us. It also feeds the argument that affiliates are high maintainence whiners who are never happy. I think it’s best to not take that tack.
Now if you decide you don’t feel comfortable working with a program that has made these changes even if they revert back then thats your choice and I can’t argue the logic of the decision. I can understand that position fully. BUT publically let’s try to reward the good and condemn the bad until we get all this trouble behind us.
Prof – i take your point and i agree with the sentiment entirely. But we shouldn’t forget that for many affiliates, this is their business too and one should take the proper steps to ensure it sits on a solid foundation. I think it was Engineer who pointed out that public condemnation of the original changes was a positive thing, not only for FL & VPL to see how affiliates can combine publically to some effect, but also to act as a warning to others that this sort of trust issue won’t be readily tolerated. And of course it alerts new affiliates to the issues at hand. So i think in this instance “whining” has it’s place
Should FL and VPL come back and agree to abandon the retroactive elements then i would applaud that as much for the admission as anything. I wouldn’t incidentally call it a “concession” though.
On the positive side, the whole sorry episode has clearly taught us that the T&C’s are NOT, at present, seen by these parties as “contractual” as they have clearly stated that no contracts have been breached, and of course the T&C’s have changed retroactively which you can’t do on an “active” contract without the agreement of all interested parties.
You (and by which I mean anyone reading this) do realise that their previous statement stating that they are legally entitled to make retroactive changes to their T&C’s means that they are legally able to change anything in the T&C’s retroactively (they could even stop paying altogether – yes i know I’m going over the top and it will never happen – FLW – but I’m demonstrating a point) and this effectively means we are working on a handshake – totally at their mercy and working on a trust basis. Now no offence, but if I’d told all my clients in my other previous businesses that I worked purely on trust, they’d have probably called me an idiot, or at best, naive.
So I’m sure we’d all agree that as business owners, we must take the necessary steps to protect our businesses. I would be perfectly willing to promote the properties again if it’s financially sensible and as long as I can be sure that future changes to the T&C’s will be notified prior to the date they are effected.
That’s not much to ask really IMHO. And if they never intend to do it again, then they may as well state it so we can all get on with a huge sign of relief and a warm fuzzy feeling
Cheers
Simmo!
Simmo! wrote:(they could even stop paying altogether – yes i know I’m going over the top and it will never happenSure they try to do that. They take players out of your account and stop paying you altogether after 6 months inactivity. The contract and website say “for life”.
Wager Share and Money Mechanic can stop paying you altogether for all the players you sent that are playing at their casinos making them money if you slip up and send no new ones for a period.
I find that totally unacceptable.
But you have to also keep in mind that in reality, these are just the programs that tell you what they are doing. There are many more who just do it – never tell you and get away with it. With impunity.
I prefer places that at least tell you and take the heat. They have a lot more character.
There never has been any way to reliably test if stats are correct. I think whales are being stolen regularly by almost everyone. They tend to surface when you do a new program that really wants you on board – and then they disappear again.
The best we can do is call them out as we see them and turn on the heat. It is one way to control them.
I will be more than happy to remove the current programs and their casinos off my blacklist should they reverse these changes they have forced upon all of us. But, my stance is that I will not consider promoting them again, until clear assurances are to be given that they will not pull this stunt again in the future. A case of once bitten, twice shy.
Also as I will be self employed come two weeks today
– I owe it to myself and my girlfriend to ensure the programs I work with who I send my traffic to, are not going to screw me over a few months down the line.This industry relies on trust and once broken, it is very hard to repair. There are still many good programs out there, that treat affiliates and the players we send them well. Fortune, VPL, Partner Logic, Referback et al will not be promoted by me, until they have given cast iron assurances in writing that they will not pull this stunt again sometime in the future. Too bad for them if they are not willing to do this!
Webzcas wrote:I will be more than happy to remove the current programs and their casinos off my blacklist should they reverse these changes they have forced upon all of us. But, my stance is that I will not consider promoting them again, until clear assurances are to be given that they will not pull this stunt again in the future. A case of once bitten, twice shy.Also as I will be self employed come two weeks today
– I owe it to myself and my girlfriend to ensure the programs I work with who I send my traffic to, are not going to screw me over a few months down the line.This industry relies on trust and once broken, it is very hard to repair. There are still many good programs out there, that treat affiliates and the players we send them well. Fortune, VPL, Partner Logic, Referback et al will not be promoted by me, until they have given cast iron assurances in writing that they will not pull this stunt again sometime in the future. Too bad for them if they are not willing to do this!I completely agree with all of that. It will be very difficult for me to trust these programs ever again. Sure, I’ll remove them from my blacklist page, and I’ll praise them in the public forums if they rescind the retroactive terms. But I will probably never advertise their casinos again. It’s like Webzcas said — “once bitten….”
I will definitely not promote Referback under the current rules.
That affiliation model is ridiculous.
To be honest, after years in this business, there are hardly any programs I trust at all. I have to go by responsiveness, T&Cs, conversions and retention. Retention helps a bit with the trust issue.
Fortune is pissed at me for pushing this and not responding to me anymore.
That is not good.
I have since had a chat with Tyrone as well – and so far what I have heard is good, if they stick to it and make the terms reasonable. But I will reserve judgement until I see the final result.
As for Referback – don’t hold your breath waiting for a response – take action now to show you mean business and MAYBE they might blink.
They are getting until Friday then we step things up to a level they cant imagine and there wont be any easy way to undo whats done.
Yup – I left them until this week to do something about it as well. But as you and I both have heard, it does look promising for a resolution from Fortune and VPL, at least.
You know, if Fortune and Vegas Partners change back, we will have had Money Mechanic, Wager Junction, Partnerlogic, Fortune and Vegas Partner responsive enough to change back.
That is five programs out of 6 who tried to breach contract.
And if you count Party Poker changing things back so the removal of fun players only affects new affiliates, then we have 6 out of 7 programs that tried this shit and corrected themselves.
I think we are doing pretty well getting this under control.
I do think Referback will see the light – but I also think they will be slow to do so and more damage will be done.
Dominique wrote:I do think Referback will see the light – but I also think they will be slow to do so and more damage will be done.I hope you are right Dom. You know, people used to ask me out of all the programs which did I like most and i always said Referback. I had a great manager, great conversions and what I thought was a great relationship with them and I am really disappointed it’s all gone pear shaped
