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@Top Casino 242447 wrote:
What you are referring to in your earlier post is not anything different than finding roulette or blackjack strategies to win. Players finding the optimal strategy. Like the doubling strategy you refer to, which is called the martingale strategy. This has nothing to do with bonus abuse in my honest opinion. It is legitimate and casino’s can not and should not do anything about it.
This being said, with the optimal blackjack strategy for example, the casino has less than 1% advantage over the player. If the player then also uses a bonus, it might be profitable for players to clear a bonus playing blackjack because of the extra money they make with the bonus. This is countered by the casino’s by excluding games like roulette and blackjack from wagering, or discounting the weight put on them.
Agreed.
I hope it does not sound like we “ganging up”, but it does not sound like bonus abuse.
So far then I believe we have:
Bonus Abuse – Players not following T&C’s by opening multiple accounts.
Legitimate Bonus Play – Players following T&C’s using bonuses to increase playing funds to win.We also have two approaches to bonuses.
Advertising – Lures to get new players.
Rewards – Rewards to repeat/loyal players.We also have two uses for bonus terms
Legitimate Casinos – Used to void winnings from players not following T&C’s
Rogue Casinos – Used to evade paying legitimate winsIs it as simple as this??
I might only add that from an operator’s point of view, you need to watch a couple of things:
1/ multiple accounts being opened by the same person which is something that has already been mentioned here before.
*Frankly, you wouldn’t believe what some people might be capable of in order to get a measly $10 freebie. Be it once or three hundred times, lol.*
2/ wagering requirements assigned to particular bonus which imho gets closest to what rmeeuwsen may have referred to as ‘bonus abuse’. Imagine the difference between the bonus wagering requirements varying as much as 1-100x and possible dent such promo can make to operator’s ROI if not set up in proper fashion.
Definitely not an easy task to set it up, especially if you want to stay away from ‘predatory’ bonus terms such 50-100x bonus+deposit amount.
3/ availability of bonuses on certain casino game types.
As it’s also been mentioned above, obviously you have different chance of winning when playing roulette, black jack, poker or slots. In reality some casino sites may only offer certain kind of bonuses for certain types of games, or at least offer different set of wagering requirements for different game types.
4/ ROI driven by players from particular countries.
Without giving any particular country names, we simply had to exclude players from certain countries from all no deposit bonus options at Slotland and Winaday, should we want to keep offering bonuses carrying mild wagering requirements.
Any more, anyone?
@rmeeuwsen 242464 wrote:
Agreed.
I hope it does not sound like we “ganging up”, but it does not sound like bonus abuse.
So far then I believe we have:
Bonus Abuse – Players not following T&C’s by opening multiple accounts.
Legitimate Bonus Play – Players following T&C’s using bonuses to increase playing funds to win.We also have two approaches to bonuses.
Advertising – Lures to get new players.
Rewards – Rewards to repeat/loyal players.We also have two uses for bonus terms
Legitimate Casinos – Used to void winnings from players not following T&C’s
Rogue Casinos – Used to evade paying legitimate winsIs it as simple as this??
I took the critiques fine. I understand what you and TopCasino are saying, but if a person tries to use a betting strategy while using a bonus, I can see why a casino would feel that the bonus was not being used “in good spirit” – that issue of “spirit of the bonus” is a criticism that’s come up in the forums many times against casinos’ sanctions.“Bonus Abuse” doesn’t mean a player has to invent the wheel, it could be as simple as using betting tactics to gain an advantage. That’s legitimate on it’s own (I don’t know how much so in a land based casino though), but if it includes using casino bonuses, I can see where a casino would be skeptical of continuing to give such a player bonuses.
Yes, I do think there are ways of beating online casinos, and the cornerstone of the approach is, discipline. To bet and behave in ways that most people would be too ashamed or too intimidated to do in land based casinos. It’s as simple as playing one or two rounds on a game like roulette, BJ etc., winning and logging out. Logging back in, playing another round or few and logging out when you’re up on the casino.
You can gamble that way with your own funds and not necessarily with bonuses. As such, “bonus abuse” is a term that can be confused with “advantage play” where no bonuses are involved. They both use overlapping tactics.
@the_soc 242486 wrote:
I took the critiques fine. I understand what you and TopCasino are saying, but if a person tries to use a betting strategy while using a bonus, I can see why a casino would feel that the bonus was not being used “in good spirit” – that issue of “spirit of the bonus” is a criticism that’s come up in the forums many times against casinos’ sanctions.“Bonus Abuse” doesn’t mean a player has to invent the wheel, it could be as simple as using betting tactics to gain an advantage. That’s legitimate on it’s own (I don’t know how much so in a land based casino though), but if it includes using casino bonuses, I can see where a casino would be skeptical of continuing to give such a player bonuses.
Yes, I do think there are ways of beating online casinos, and the cornerstone of the approach is, discipline. To bet and behave in ways that most people would be too ashamed or too intimidated to do in land based casinos. It’s as simple as playing one or two rounds on a game like roulette, BJ etc., winning and logging out. Logging back in, playing another round or few and logging out when you’re up on the casino.
You can gamble that way with your own funds and not necessarily with bonuses. As such, “bonus abuse” is a term that can be confused with “advantage play” where no bonuses are involved. They both use overlapping tactics.
I do not agree that it is possible to beat a casino. The mathematics of the games are just simply in the advantage of the casino.
But I did come to another thread in one of the pokerforums I am in, where a guy got a $25 bonus (No deposit) to play with a wager of 35x. He calculated by playing the optimal blackjack strategy this has an expected value of +$17,50 if the odds came out as expected beforehand. I think this is kind of what you mean, the_soc? But without bonuses the odds will always be in the casino’s advantage.
@Top Casino 242487 wrote:
I do not agree that it is possible to beat a casino. The mathematics of the games are just simply in the advantage of the casino.
But I did come to another thread in one of the pokerforums I am in, where a guy got a $25 bonus (No deposit) to play with a wager of 35x. He calculated by playing the optimal blackjack strategy this has an expected value of +$17,50 if the odds came out as expected beforehand. I think this is kind of what you mean, the_soc? But without bonuses the odds will always be in the casino’s advantage.
The part I agree with, is that it’s certainly hard if not impossible to *constantly* keep ahead of the house, be it blackjack, let alone slots.
It *is* nonetheless perfectly possible for individual to grab a no deposit bonus and turn it into a sizable withdrawal, as neatly pictured on the given example above.
In the short run of course, someone can get lucky (this is also not abuse of the bonus), but I am talking about the cornerstone of the casino’s; the advantage they have over the players in the long run.
The example I gave above though, I do not see as bonus abuse. It is just a pourly set up bonus by this particular casino. The player was smart enough to see how he could use this to his advantage.
Well, if a casino has setup their wagering requirements TOO LOW, then that is their misfortune/loss if a player follows the rules and uses the free bonuses (welcome bonuses, reload bonuses, birthday bonuses, vip club bonuses, no deposit bonuses etc.) to play and win enough to withdraw the winnings.
without getting too technical (boring), most casinos have properly calculated the game odds and then set their bonus wagering requirements and game weight factors so that a player has to be very very ‘lucky’ with a ‘winning streak” (short term wins that are contrary to statistical game expectations) in order to gain an ‘advantage’ and win.
The aforementioned $25 no deposit poker bonus is a good example. I also previously personally experienced such a win on a no deposit slot bonus. These instances are real and they are actual cases of players ‘beating the casino’ fairly. But, they are by no means ‘bonus abuse’, they could be more aptly called ‘bonus use’. This is also what the ‘mathematically challenged’ player is trying to do when they go after and accept these bonuses.
If a casino voids wins from a legitimate win such as that when the player follows the T&C’s, then they themselves are ‘not playing fair’ and should be called ‘bonus abusers’. If they don’t want these type of players then maybe they should do a little truth in advertising and just say “only stupid players allowed” or “If you lose, ha ha sucker” or “if you win, you must be a cheat”.
So what is the next step?
Rather than going after the biggest and flashiest bonus, shouldn’t bonus hunters just find a reputable casino that has wagering requirements that are set too low against the game odds.
I think we have found one of those within our midst! (please pardon any perceived advertorial)
Slotland is a reliable CAP member and has been around for 14 years. In their T&C’s they say “All deposits are required to be wagered at least once (1x) prior to requesting a withdrawal”. So if a casual player just looks there they might think ‘how stupid can they be, I’m going to deposit the max and get another $1,000 for free and make some easy money’.
But fools that they are, if that player looked on the ‘BONUS page’ like they were told to, they would see the ‘WAGERING REQUIREMENTS’. It says “Welcome Bonuses are required to be wagered 12x”.
OH! Deposits wagered once and Bonuses wagered twelve times equals a 13x. (aren’t a lot of bonus disputes really just about people not reading)
But the smart bonus hunter reads the T&C’s, Wagering requirements and looks at the games being offered for any real advantage. And they will easily find one here with the Jacks or Better Video Poker game. using Wikipedia’s 98.4% expected return for Jacks or Better I came up with an expected $58 win on slotlands $100 welcome bonus or a $397 win if you deposited $1,900 to get the max. $1,000 bonus.
(gawd, I wish I could stick in an affiliate link here)
I agree with both things you say, rmeeuwsen.
Many players simply won’t ever bother reading bonus offer details no matter how you serve it. And at least to a player inside me the lower wagering requirements matter almost equally – if not even more – than the bonus amount itself. In other words I’d rather take $50 with 10x, than $100 with +20x play through.
But a lot of folks just won’t do their math
@Slotland_Affiliates 242550 wrote:
I agree with both things you say, rmeeuwsen.
Many players simply won’t ever bother reading bonus offer details no matter how you serve it. And at least to a player inside me the lower wagering requirements matter almost equally – if not even more – than the bonus amount itself. In other words I’d rather take $50 with 10x, than $100 with +20x play through.
But a lot of folks just won’t do their math
Yes, it seems to be just basic common sense. There is no high math computation involved either. Using your two brands as an example, there is:
Win A Day – Max. Bonus $500 with 10x bonus and 1x deposit wagering requirments.
Slotland – Max. Bonus $1,000 with 12x bonus and 1x deposit wagering requirments.Wouldn’t the smart bonus hunter first grab the $500 bonus and then the $1,000 bonus? Both seem to be the lowest x around with decent $.
you only have to research terms like gnome farms, q-wager , casibot , what vm ware does etc to know why bonus abuse has caused casinos to be a bit gun shy, particularly in places where creating bank accounts and new indentities etc is much less stringent.
it wasnt that long ago the perfect strategy play on many games was a licence to print money and realise why alot went down the path of fraudulently creating many accounts
golden palace used to have a bonus that you deposited 100 bucks that would mathematically deliver an EV of $260 with a few hrs work
this was low hanging fruit , there are still many advantage players that make good money exploiting casino loopholes
Funny that you just post this, last night I just thought of the fact that a pourly set up bonus does become bonus abuse once players start using bots to clear a bonus in a casino. I didn’t know though there was so much software out there to promote this kind of bonus hunting.
If bots are directly or indirectly mentioned in the T&C’s it surely is abuse.
But the $25 million question is does this ‘crapola’ really work.
At the sites I found, the bonus terms were woefully outdated, but the forums seems relatively active.
ask some of the whores that have made 10’s or even 100’s of thousands exploiting them and you’ll soon see why the average joe cant play black jack or video poker without ridiculous rollover requirements
its still a very active field , but certainly not anywhere near the way it used to be and you actually need a brain these days to be able to do it profitably
@rmeeuwsen 242632 wrote:
If bots are directly or indirectly mentioned in the T&C’s it surely is abuse.
But the $25 million question is does this ‘crapola’ really work.
At the sites I found, the bonus terms were woefully outdated, but the forums seems relatively active.
You nailed it Richard… it is the $25 Million Dollar question…. So, who has the real answers? Where do affiliates go from here?
