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Dominique, of course this is an affiliate matter. I always send player complaints to affiliate program people and they always try to resolve it. Your interpretation of the Fortune Lounge affair is incorrect. Fortune Lounge knew what they were doing. Most of the time, only casinos going out of business resort to this (apart from a few short sighted ones with a bad attitute to players winning with bonuses) but it seems now casinos can’t survive without acting in this way. It’s gone on ever since I can remember and that’s a long time ago now.
I already pulled Bellerock from 99% of my site before I started this thread and have a warning about why I did it on the forum index. It was also the group I gave the most exposure to and at certain times made the most money from. I am really disappointed they had to resort to shady practises. By the way, I was talking about gifts they send affiliates and their best players. My point is about how they behave with their other players which you don’t seem very concerned about.
Well, they are not sending me any gifts. And I still resent the sentiment.
I have been around for years also and I do see periodic purges of fraudulent players that catch some innocents in the net.
I actually have not seen that with places that did go out of business. With them I see problems with non payment that are not bonus related.
Not concerned about – I am concerned about everything, starvation in the world, genocide and all sorts of things. But I can only take care of my own as best I can. I can’t solve every Player problem. I can only make sure my own players don’t run into any issues, and that is what I do.
You should read the Meister newsletter re fortune:
Well I used to get presents from Referback quite regularly and I know they treat their best players the same way.
@Dominique 152674 wrote:
I actually have not seen that with places that did go out of business. With them I see problems with non payment that are not bonus related.
Unfortunately, I’ve seen it plenty of times when casinos got their sums wrong due to misjudging the growth of the market. In 1999 casinos used to routinely offer almost unlimited bonuses with practically no wagering requirements because the cost wasn’t great and just a few months later the same promotion would take them down. In a lot of cases they simply paid slowly and stopped before disappearing (eg. Tropika with their long ‘audit’) but in many cases they tried to use the ‘bonus abuse’ clause as a last resort. Usually the latter was with RTG or Playtech casinos but examples of formerly reputable MicroGaming sites that left this way are the Microgaming C3i (Caribbean Cyber Casino) after a massive PayPal promo although this was a long time ago. More recently Captain Cooks (Integrity) did the same trying to get out of paying bonuses. They were bought out and the previous people involved came back to open an RTG site Hippo Jo taking players money (I can’t help thinking maybe that was their intention from the start). The most recent was Fortune Lounge that clearly stated at the time that they needed to do it to save their business and Casino Rewards recently told me the same thing :”the sole purpose of the changes was to keep the business afloat“.
I read what Casinomeister said about Fortune Lounge and wasn’t really surprised after he forgave Jackpot Factory after this idiocy (http://mb.winneronline.com/showthread.html?t=2464 ). I don’t think Fortune Lounge paying the players complaining to Casinomeister was enough as I’m sure plenty more were not paid. I had them dumped years before for similar behaviour and even I had two bonus related problems playing with them (had to use VPops twice to resolve it and I think it was only resolved because of my website). I actually had some complaints from players too which I resolved and some only received their deposit back after my intervention (not winnings) and I was sure they were not part of a syndicate (they just had foreign names and poor english).
Maybe casinos should read this old thread: http://mb.winneronline.com/showthread.html?t=4854
People on the Casinomeister thread have come to the conclusion that the BelleRock terms are not legally enforceable under UK law and Gibraltar law will be very similar. It’s is not just this point of hiding or making them unclear etc. but on this thread Shane has said that they are arbitrarily enforced, anyway. Just the scope for abuse (such as giving the bonus but not paying winners) means it’s not going to be a valid term in the contract, as won’t any arbitrary ‘bonus abuse’ clause that isn’t clearly defined.
I’m also not happy with certain banner ads which just say ‘£500 free no deposit’ when it really is just a Freeplay with £50 transfer.
BelleRock should see sense on this before the Gibraltar Gambling Authority get a chance to fine them etc. for breaches of their license.
Sirus at this point I don’t think anything will make you happy. I am not lavished with gifts either from this group or any other. The 500 is free play IF the player chooses to cashout the good faith deposit of 50 is fair in my opinion, if the player does not win they still had the chance to win and enjoyed 500 on the casino. Why would it be wrong to ask for a good faith deposit, the casino needs to ensure the player is legit and having them make that deposit is a good way to go about that PLUS you as the affiliate gain a real depositing player. SInce you like to toss around other casino groups names you can look around at the many other casinos that have this type of offer you will see that just about ALL of them have this same type of rule of a good faith deposit.
I think your a player with an issue that is getting way carried away here in this thread.
My suggestion is maybe just go about your business and enjoy life, let this matter rest.
@bonustreak 152692 wrote:
Sirus at this point I don’t think anything will make you happy. I am not lavished with gifts either from this group or any other. The 500 is free play IF the player chooses to cashout the good faith deposit of 50 is fair in my opinion, if the player does not win they still had the chance to win and enjoyed 500 on the casino. Why would it be wrong to ask for a good faith deposit, the casino needs to ensure the player is legit and having them make that deposit is a good way to go about that PLUS you as the affiliate gain a real depositing player. SInce you like to toss around other casino groups names you can look around at the many other casinos that have this type of offer you will see that just about ALL of them have this same type of rule of a good faith deposit.
I think your a player with an issue that is getting way carried away here in this thread.
My suggestion is maybe just go about your business and enjoy life, let this matter rest.
I wasn’t talking about the deposit but about the maximum you can transfer with the £500 freeplay but I just noticed it’s not £50 any more (it was at some sites) but now you can transfer up to £200 to your bonus balance.
The Bellerock member at Casinomeister has posted for a second time and again has not responded properly. I would post there but Casinomeister got a bit paranoid and banned me after I rightly criticized his favourite casino 32Red (I’d been posting there since 1999, by the way, and I think I was the last person from that time that still posted)
‘BelleRock’ just seems like a customer service guy to me and he’s not doing the group any favours. Also if you do a search for bellerock, you will see my site at number 1 spot and it states your group may soon be blacklisted. Please someone take this seriously. That term that would not be valid in contract law as being unfair (let alone that it’s not clear) since the player is given the bonus with no chance of winning. I’ve finished arguing about it. Something needs to be done.
Sirius I agree with bonustreak. I doubt wether you are going to be satisfied with any answer too.
Here’s the problem CAP is a community which services affiliate webmasters. We do not specialize in player issues or bonus disputes. We do make every effort to ensure the programs listed here provide reputable casinos and poker rooms to play at, but as I said our primary interface with them is on the affiliate side.
There are a number of excellent player resources online who do have the necessary contacts with player support managers at the casinos, Casinomeister is our favorite one so I suggest you make amends there and post a “PAB”. Bryan is a great guy and I am sure if you post your concerns in a professionl manner he will be happy to help.
@Professor 152980 wrote:
Sirius I agree with bonustreak. I doubt wether you are going to be satisfied with any answer too.
Here’s the problem CAP is a community which services affiliate webmasters. We do not specialize in player issues or bonus disputes. We do make every effort to ensure the programs listed here provide reputable casinos and poker rooms to play at, but as I said our primary interface with them is on the affiliate side.
There are a number of excellent player resources online who do have the necessary contacts with player support managers at the casinos, Casinomeister is our favorite one so I suggest you make amends there and post a “PAB”. Bryan is a great guy and I am sure if you post your concerns in a professionl manner he will be happy to help.
I have nothing to pitch a bitch about. This is nothing to do with me as a player as I haven’t played at Bellerock for quite some time. I am an affiliate with them and have been for close to five years! So obviously I want this resolved. The casinos need to see sense as they did five years previously.
I had highlighted this problem to Bryan by email nearly a month ago with no response (he was asking for player issues to bring to operators). I still have no idea when the terms were changed. The affiliate manager here is saying they are arbitrarily enforced and obviously didn’t know about this change either (remember the casinos are cross marketed heavily by themselves too). The Bellerock rep there was incorrect in his first post by saying players needed to agree to download the casino and the second one didn’t address when the term was added or why it wasn’t made clear. The fact is that the term is not legally enforceable as it stands. Players shouldn’t have received the bonuses after claiming them. Trust me, I know what I’m talking about here and this is something that needs to be resolved. This is just one of the problems but there is at least one more related problem.
Obviously, if a casino steals from players then they are not reputable. That’s one of the things that needs to be addressed here and soon.
BelleRock and Referback are one of the largest, oldest and most respected casino groups online. To say they are not reputable and steal from players is absurd. 32Red is equally well respected by players and affiliates. I can see why you wore out your welcome at Casinomeister and suspect you are about to do the same here.
Your complaint is NOT about an affiliate related problem its about player bonuses.
Sirius if you dont mind would you post the url for your portals? Are you an affiliate webmaster?
It’s in my Profile. Bellerock were the only Microgaming site I promoted so I know how reputable they were. I am just surprised this has happened with them now.
You know, this is what I see:
If you are going to get your players into trouble by encouraging them to run from casino to casino within a group and claim bonuses, and that group of casinos doesn’t give out but one bonus per group, it’s you who is doing false advertising and ruining player experiences.
Years ago, players did have an advantage from going around and collecting bonuses because there were few rules and low wagering requirements, if any.
Today, a player is generally ill advised to go casino hopping to collect bonuses in most cases, because retention bonuses are often a lot better, both in size and in wagering requirements.
So that’s why I see you hopping all over the net claiming your players are getting screwed at places where others simply have no problems.
I think you are causing problems for your players by giving them antiquated advice.
If I were you, I would give that a hard look first.
@Dominique 152987 wrote:
You know, this is what I see:
If you are going to get your players into trouble by encouraging them to run from casino to casino within a group and claim bonuses, and that group of casinos doesn’t give out but one bonus per group, it’s you who is doing false advertising and ruining player experiences.
Years ago, players did have an advantage from going around and collecting bonuses because there were few rules and low wagering requirements, if any.
Today, a player is generally ill advised to go casino hopping to collect bonuses in most cases, because retention bonuses are often a lot better, both in size and in wagering requirements.
So that’s why I see you hopping all over the net claiming your players are getting screwed at places where others simply have no problems.
I think you are causing problems for your players by giving them antiquated advice.
If I were you, I would give that a hard look first.
Dominique, where on my site do I tell players to do this or where did you get this impression? My site has never been about bonuses at all. It is all about which casinos are reputable and which are not and also to document their full history (a lot of work) and also educate players (many non-gamblers have false beliefs and think it is hard to win when your chances are actually very good and bonuses have nothing to do with it).
There’s a page which listed the BelleRock properties and their offers as this was basically the main group I’ve always promoted until recently. I never told them to join them all as there is no point. The properties that have advertising on my site I optimise the site for in terms of search engines which is why the traffic is so qualified as long as they stay reputable.
I don’t actually know if any players referred by me have had this problem as this is fairly new and many are not interested in joining the forum either and may not remember who referred them or may not contact me. It’s not about any players I recommend to the group. I only found out about these serious problems from forum postings elsewhere.
Well, I just went back to quote something you said a lot earlier, and I find most all of your posts retroactively edited.
I recall clearly that you said you advertised Belle rock as a group by using the sum total of bonuses offered at all of their casinos.
Can you point me to where this is?
What do u mean retroactively edited? I haven’t removed things I wrote but may add things or correct mistakes. I did write that a few times here and it must still be here. What I meant was I had link text to the bellerock page say something like ‘$500 worth of bonuses’ (I had that sort of text on the index page for close to 5 years until recently). I’m sure many webmasters do the same but the page itself just listed the offers. Players could always in the past sign up to all of them too as this is just a recent thing (apparently they still can according to Shane but some are arbitrarily denied winnings after being given the bonus).
