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As you probably know, Carmen Media acquired Referback quite a while ago now. Since then the stats have got even less detailed. No more details of the number of players playing each month (Only new players). No more details of amount of deposits. I wish they used similar stats to Trident Share (Carmen Media also acquired Tident Group some time ago) although I am dubious about the accuracy due to consistent wins at Trident Share unlike other programs.
The point is in recent weeks I have noticed strange happenings like commission disappearing from one day to the next (but no negative so presumably they won the same amount they had lost). Subsequent unexplained closes of accounts occurred for the current brands just after commission disappeared. Also, many times player activity seems to stop altogether!
If you look at your stats you will see lots of closed accounts but this was from yesterday for the old brands which apparently finally closed this month (I’ll get on to that later) but before this time I noticed closed acounts this month for the current brands which I wouldn’t normally get. This happened just after my commission disappeared. Other affiliates didn’t have the same problem.
The explanations from Cobus have not been accurate so far. Belle Rock Gaming also changed name to Belle Rock Entertainment with no announcements made and it’s difficult to obtain any information as to the date of this change (which was well over a year ago now). Affiliate ID’s for the Bellerock portal weren’t carried over after some time (if using the bellerockgaming.com URL). The same with the links to the old brands (they used to carry the AFF ID but then stopped after some time).
About the latest happenings. Yesterday, I think, all accounts were closed from the old brands. Now I have to wonder if these players who didn’t migrate to the new brands or had never even played yet would still be tracked to the affiliate in the future. Normally, this would be the case.
Hi there Sirius,
I would like to walk through this step by step as there are many different topics within this post:
“Carmen Media acquired Referback quite a while ago now. Since then the stats have got even less detailed.”
Correct about 2/3 years ago we became the affiliate program for Belle Rock Entertainment, this however has nothing to do with our online reports. Those were simplified in response to many requests from our parters to ensure increased stability. The original complexity was causing undue down time.“… no negative so presumably they won the same amount they had lost”
This is a little confusing for me as I have checked the stats on your account (which is feedback Cobus supplied you with earlier today) and the info given is correct. There was a) a player win and b) a chargeback from the same player, naturally this affected your netwin figure.The fact that this did not pull you into a negative is a good thing, not an something to be concerned about. Not all losses necessarily result in negative balances if you have other players making up the difference.
“… closes of accounts occurred for the current brands just after commission disappeared”
This has a two fold answer:
1. you had some accounts closed for various reasons. Please refer to Cobus’s emails as the player data he gave is correct.
2. after a very long campaign to move players off Home and Showdown we have finally shut off the gaming servers. Those few players who were still active were each called personally and assisted with accounts at RiverBelle if the did not already have one.Important:
i] All players migrated in this manner still track to the affiliate who owns them at customer level.
ii] Any inactive players who reactivate at new brands will also belong to the affiliate because of the customer rule.“The explanations from Cobus have not been accurate so far”
I’ve reviewed all conversation between you and Cobus and the only inaccuracy has been the date he gave you for when players were last accepted on Home and Showdown.He said ‘over 2 years ago’ and you came back with ‘I already knew it was March 26 last year’ this does not constitute overall inaccurancy.
Also in order to ensure accurate responses when asked about either questions relating to Finance or Analysis I encourage my team to go to the relevant departments before giving answers these important points. When questions relate to data we maintain you can expect quick responses… please keep that in mind when we answer quickly on some points but defer to other departments on others.
This is to avoid unpleasantries around supplying inaccurate data.
“Belle Rock Gaming also changed name to Belle Rock Entertainment with no announcements”
You are correct no massive global announcement was made. However at the time of the change over we did communicate this to our affiliate database and go to great pains to specifically ensure affiliates who used links to Belle Rock Gaming moved them over to ‘Entertainment’.“… they used to carry the AFF ID but then stopped after some time”
This is currently tracking and I must admit this has not been a specific focus of Referbacks to check. We do however track accounts across many levels so I am confident all players are correctly mapped.We track by 3 different variable from Belle Rock to the casino brands as well as by a spider which runs all referring urls for the last 7 days and ensures all players are also mapped back to their specific sending url owner.
I hope this is useful.
Shane
I don’t see how the previous stats would produce more downtime! It wasn’t exactly detailed in the first place.
I was frustrated with Cobus simply because a lot of his explanations weren’t accurate: ” For the first few months, players were directed to
River Belle and the affiliate was credited for these players.
However, due to numerous affiliates that still advertise these casinos,
the decision was made to drop the affiliate ID as these casinos no
longer exist. There were plenty of warning to affiliates before the
time in newsletters and on the website. The same happened when Belle
Rock Gaming changed to Belle Rock Entertainment around the same time.”He clearly says here that you stopped tracking and you say you didn’t? I only had the links to the old sites for completeness and explained that players would be redirected to the more popular brands from March 26th 2006. However, I still got traffic in the stats to the old brands until very recently (then I noticed the affiliate ID wasn’t being carried over). I still don’t have the date for when Belle Rock Gaming changed to Belle Rock Entertainment and I would have noticed any announcements. Above he says you stopped tracking after a few months but this was well over a year ago now but I still got tracked for the old brands until very recently so that wasn’t accurate either.
Also, it’s frustrating when even though I ask him numerous times, the answer is always incorrect eg. :
“When was Belle Rock Gaming changed to Belle Rock Entertainment?
Around the same time that Aces High, Showdown and Home casinos stopped accepting new players. This was about end of 2005 (I mentioned 2 years as it seemed longer – my apologies.”
Again this wasn’t true, I’d already stated to him it was March 2006 when new players stopped being accepted in the old brands. Belle Rock Gaming changed before this but no announcements were made. Incidentally, I was high up on google for Belle Rock Gaming which was why I was asking about this.
Then this was his explanation for the closes this month (before the current major closes in the old brands) he said this yesterday:
“A lot more accounts were closed this month due to the 11 states that
are blocked. The Risk Department at the casinos have once again gone back
to the start and closed all players accounts from these stats (whether
they played or not, e.g. if the account was only opened, it has been
closed). This was done a few months ago as well, but there were still
a few opened accounts which have now been closed.”Obviously that is not correct and doesn’t make sense (other affiliates didn’t have closes at the time). Now today he says they were fraudulant and linked players (obviously forgetting what he said the day before). This time he replies straight away with this information about fraudulant accounts, presumably without having to check with any other department.
Another thing is the fact you are paying the amount of $US in the stats to Neteller in Euros and not $US (my Neteller account is in US$). The amount I got in August was 4% less than in the stats but normally it is about the same. I only noticed the difference in August so I’m sure the exchange rate used was incorrect or it is going through two currency exchanges.
His explanations again were various:
“NETeller is no longer available in the US and we
> > therefore cannot pay in USD to NETeller accounts.
> > Should you wish to be paid in Pounds rather then
> > Euros, please let me know, however the amount will
> > always differ from the amount on the online stats
> as
> > this is in USD. The Accounts Department work out
> > the amount according to the conversion rate at the
> > time of processing payments and I can ask them
> what
> > the exchange rate was when last month’s payments
> > were processed. The amount will sometimes be less
> > and sometimes more than on the online stats due to
> > the exchange rate, which will always work out to
> the
> > amount that we owe you, however the currency will
> be
> > different.”Then when I checked with Neteller and they said that many merchants still pay in US$ and it’s still possible to, he said:
“NETeller accounts can only be paid in Euros as per the Processing
department due to their business rules. The USD amounts from the stats
are converted in Euros at the time of processing and depends on the
conversion rate at that specific time.”Sirius, what exactly is the issue?
Do you feel you are owed money or are you just generally angry?
I can’t figure out what you are asking to be done for you.
This month I had 22 closes in Aces High and 219 closes in Showdown with 0 actives and $0 earnings.
Last month I had only 1 close in Lucky Nugget, 64 opens in Lucky Nugget, 2 opens in Riverbelle and………. 1 open in SHOWDOWN. 0 Actives and $0 earnings.
August 11 opens, 2 closes, 0 actives and $0 earnings.
July and prior I had earnings every month. (Except one) for over 2 years.
I can understand Sirius’ concerns. I don’t like the vagueness of the current stat reports. It gives me nearly zero information. I don’t like seeing a boat load of closes without prior notification of anything going on. With the lack of information available in stats now, all the closes and sudden drop-offs of earnings for the last 3-4 months makes it hard for me to have a lot of confidence in accuracy also.
Hey there Daera,
I can see how that would get a little confusing…
1. Mass closed accounts on SD and HC:
All Showdown (SD) and Home casino (HC) accounts which were still open were closed as the casino is no longer active, hence the mass closes. Seeing as they’re inactive accounts there will no $ value associated to them.2. Open accounts on seemingly closed casinos
As for the odd open account on either SD or HC, where there was an unclaimed bonus amount in a closed account those accounts had to be reopened the unclaimed amount deducted and the account then closed again.In order to ensure all accounts are cleared of any balances the casinos have to reopen them before making any transactions, my apologies if this caused any confusion.
Shane
Sirius,
Reporting…
I won’t bat this point around but our stats gave a lot of data (just not a lot of individual player data) and allowed queries over very long periods of time.If you feel this was not enough for you then that is fair as you know what you needed for your business. If you need more data Cobus can supply you with additional reporting and even set up a schedule for you so you receive that data consistently at pre determined dates which suit your needs.
Group name and tracking…
As for the change from BRG to BRE it was communicated and if I can find any of the documentation on it I will gladly post it here but as it is a few years old now please understand it may not be possible.Tracking of players in my mind is a simple issue, as long as a player is yours at Customer Level they will always be yours – whether they reactivate old accounts in order to move from one brand to another or even open new accounts on our db they are your customer and you are therefore owed any revenues they generate. Simple as that.
Locked account…
The additional lock outs which were undertaken by the Risk team recently was the locking of accounts in Utah. This does not however negate his comment about your fraudulent players as 4 of your closed accounts were due to fraudulent activities.The above are all valid and current reasons for your player closes, the one does not make the other irrelevant.
Neteller payment in Euros…
Here I do have to admit there is a mix up in the way the message is being conveyed.The first email you quote is the feedback we received from Neteller regarding US based affiliates, normally this would not affect you as you are situated outside of the US.
In the second quote is from a seperate email; here Cobus’s reference to “Processing department” is referring to DataCash not Netellers processing department. This how we speak of DC internally and read inconjunction with quote one is misleading.
Now for the ‘WHY’…
In order to ensure payments go through successfully all merchant accounts are being funded in Euro’s. This way payment goes via a European bank and from there can go to a US account. This way there is a very low chance of any payments not being processed.This is not done on an account by account basis but as a business rule to ensure that both players and affiliates receive payment speedily. This is why even players living outside the US but using Neteller are being paid in Euro’s.
Shane
Hey Shane,
I still think your stats could usea little improving. The old stats were great. I think the way it’s set up now, it’s discouraging rather than encouraging. Just my two cents.
Thanks for explaining Shane.
P.S. Cobus is great though….. :wink-wink
On October 19th, I posted I had the following in my Referback stats:
This month I had 22 closes in Aces High and 219 closes in Showdown with 0 actives and $0 earnings.
As of right now, I see a total of 3 opens and 0 closes. It also looks like they’ve just removed the stats from the other casinos like Showdown. So now I can see even less of what’s happening this month in my stats as before. :confused:
Hey there D,
A decision was made to remove the stats for those brands from our reports now for 2 reasons:
1. The opening and closing of these accounts was simply causing too much confusion for some affiliates.
2. We no longer maintain those brands so we had to remove them from our stats at some point.
Cheers,
ShaneThe stats are useless. They hardly ever move, for one thing. Trident Share (also Microgaming casinos) is in realtime. There I can see information for *each* player, including when they first played and when they last played. I can see their deposits/wagers/return for any day including any progressive deductions (can also see their most played game for any month). It even shows each player’s account number (you could use a unique ID instead for each player). So I can see precisely how much each player deposits, wagers, and their return down to each particular day. Referback isn’t even showing the number of players playing each month. Your explanations of the previous stats (which were hardly any better than they are now) being downgraded because they were causing downtime is not even funny.
The stats need to be upgraded to those of Trident Share (shouldn’t be difficult) so I can see most of this information at some point in the future. The question is does Carmen Media own Trident Share (I guess it does)?
Also, as has happened before, when a person from the UK clicks on the normal River Belle affiliate link, it redirects to the UK site without carrying the affiliate ID. The other casinos are working fine at the moment when they redirect to the UK site. Why does this problem keep happening?
Thanks for the input Sirius, it has been passed on the folks who make those decisions and if anything comes of it I will post it in the forums ASAP.
For the time being if you want additional information please follow my previous suggestion and speak to Cobus about setting up an auto report which can send you what you need to run your business and at a frequency that suits you.
As for your question – yes it is difficult – Referback runs independantly of all other affiliate programs out there… there is no way we can just ‘switch to’ another programs reporting style – the back end work is immense and takes an incredible amount of coding to get in place.
I had this checked and the affiliate id does appear to drop when redirecting a UK based player from a .com coded link to the .com/UK webpage – it is being tracked via session id’s (due to the .com/uk pages being coded in .NET).
I will getting a technical run down of how this works within the next day and will post it then.
Shane
Tracking quesiton…
It has been confirmed through 3rd parties and by my own testing that players redirected due to IP targeting are being tracked.
The site was coded in .Net and a directive was given to the coders to find a way to pass a clean link. Using ASP handlers the data such as VT number, affiliate id and other entries are captured while the page is loading and written away to a database.
The link is then shown as clean however it is being tracked – this can be verified by 1. checking visits and d/loads on the Referback stats, also by viewing the source and pulling the VT # as you move from page to page – it will be a constant number.
All the best,
ShaneI suggest you start simultaneously using the Trident Share stats as an option for your affiliates. There are no traffic stats but it’s not necessary. I don’t understand your point about needing a lot of work to change the backend as it’s already there for Trident.
I am also not convinced about the integrity of your stats or Trident Share’s since Carmen Media took over. I had recent communication with Trident and they were very willing to help go through some things but there was one thing they couldn’t explain and the last I heard they were going to try and find out what happened after liasing with another department. Well since then (well over a month ago) there have been no replies to emails sent to Trident.
So basically I’m going to post the problem here. You may think this is the wrong thread but I don’t think so.
A player joined on 3rd July last year (Carmen Media bought Trident just over a month earlier). The first month he deposited $7400 and wagered nearly 207K. He ended up winning quite nicely and returned over 213k (over 6k win) with a non-progressive slot (Bars and Stripes) being his favourite game. No problem there at all (except his win is strangely close to his deposit amount). The next month he deposits over $10k (presumably he cashed out the previous month) and wagered just over 201k and coincidentally returns almost the same back of (give or take a few hundred). He plays no progressives but has deductions of $1500 (bonuses I presume). So another good month for him (no losses) and again his favourite game is Bars and Stripes.
He plays again the next month for a small amount (deposits $500) but it is the last month he ever plays, stopping on 18th September 2006. His total stats ended up being:
tlcr00623xxx (I’ve left out the last 3 numbers of his account number)
purchases $18149, wagers 411603.65, return 417022.25, deductions 1986.90 (the deductions I suppose would have been bonuses as he played less than 1k on progressive games so there were hardly any progressive fees)Right, nothing to complain about yet (just a lucky player). Well two months after he stops playing, there is a chargeback on the account for this player. It is only for $1150 (compared to over $18k he deposited). Also, how can a player charge back when he has nothing to charge back as apparently he didn’t lose anything? Even if somehow one of his deposits didn’t get accepted it wouldn’t matter as he didn’t lose it and would have had it returned anyway(remember this chargeback only appeared two months after he supposedly stopped playing). So this question has been puzzling me for a while and it seems like Trident don’t have an answer either as they have stopped replying to emails (for over a month now). I even asked cobus if he could get someone at Carmen Media to get me a response but didn’t get any help there.
So it makes me think this player didn’t win after all or was removed from my account (another affiliate posted here that a whale who had been playing for 2 years and never stopped for more than 5 days stopped playing a week after Carmen Media took over). This wasn’t the only thing in the stats I noticed but it would be nice to have anyone answer this question for me on how that chargeback was possible.
P.S. A good thing about the stats is you can see any players wagers for any particular day too (not just month). eg a good day for the above player on 26th July: wagers: $71,435.00, return:$85,532.10 ($14,097.10) which wiped out any commission. I can even see the date the chargeback was added (15th November).
Hours after posting that message, 2.5k of fraud reversals were added on my referback account! I never had any chargebacks before except for small amounts. What percentage of the chargeback is put on there as I need to make up that amount in commission so does that mean 10k in chargebacks? I very much doubt it.
P.S. They must work early at referback. It’s only 9am in UK and I only had $200 in reversals before the earlier message less than 6 hours ago when I checked. I see Wayne is here so hopefully he can shed some light on this for me.
